Confirmation Bias and Friendship

Confirmation Bias
[00:00:00] MATT: Hello. Oh, there I am. 
[00:00:01] Fawn: Hi, there you are. Hi everybody. Welcome back. Welcome back to our friendly world. Today we're talking about confirmation bias. Matt, can you explain what that is again? And also how we're going to relate it to friendship. 
[00:00:14] MATT: Oh my goodness. Yeah, come on. I'll 
[00:00:16] Fawn: do that too. 
[00:00:17] MATT: Confirmation bias.
[00:00:19] MATT: Wow. Basically, confirmation bias wraps us around the infamous phrase. Have you ever heard it? You don't get a second chance at a first impression. 
[00:00:31] Fawn: I've always heard that. 
[00:00:33] MATT: Now why is that? 
[00:00:35] Fawn: Because I think, uh, that's when you achieve your gut feeling without overthinking things. 
[00:00:42] MATT: Ta da! Yes, but what happens when your gut feeling is wrong?
[00:00:48] Fawn: I don't think it's ever wrong. 
[00:00:49] MATT: Ooh! Okay, so Nobody's ever going to care about mp3s, because in my gut I believe that was never going to happen. And, and no, Amazon was [00:01:00] never going to make money on the interwebs. I don't 
[00:01:01] Fawn: think that was your gut. It was. I think that was ego. Nope. Ego. It was. No, because you think you know.
[00:01:07] Fawn: And it was your ego saying that. That's not your gut. 
[00:01:10] MATT: Let's, let's go spiraling off. And also I believe Amazon would never make money. 
[00:01:14] Fawn: Again, I think that was your ego as an, yes, as a techie. 
[00:01:18] MATT: Empirical evidence stated. But anyway. 
[00:01:20] Fawn: But see, that's not gut. You're looking at imperial whatever evidence. 
[00:01:24] MATT: Well, no, no, no, I wasn't looking at empirical data.
[00:01:27] MATT: That was the problem. You just said you were though. Historically, yes, but I wasn't looking for it. You're 
[00:01:31] Fawn: looking at data. And that's what you just said. And that's not gut. Welcome to our marriage, folks. 
[00:01:38] MATT: Hail. No, um, the trick is, is once you actually form an opinion, it's like real hard to look at it rationally and from an unbiased state.
[00:01:52] MATT: So once you believe that red is the greatest color on earth, it's really hard to be dissuaded from that fact.[00:02:00] 
[00:02:02] Fawn: I don't want to say that for all of the population because I don't think I'm like that. Because I'm always changing my mind. It's true. 
[00:02:11] MATT: Most people tend to find their lane and they make decisions. Capital punishment is, you know, BOOM! Let's talk about bringing down the show, right? But there are people who believe one side or the other and it's really hard to change their minds.
[00:02:27] Fawn: Ok. I go back to "Days of Our Lives". Oh dear. You know, the soap opera? Oh dear. I, okay, full disclosure, friends out there. Oh dear, here it comes. So I'm a homeschooling mom, and I put our kids through a really rigorous, um, academic, what do you call it? 
[00:02:50] MATT: Curriculum. 
[00:02:50] Fawn: Curriculum, thank you. But in that, I seasoned it with Untraditional things, you know, like I had them doing [00:03:00] yoga seven days a week for like an hour to two hours a day.
[00:03:04] Fawn: I had them learning Jedi tricks, like mind reading and all of that, right? This is aside to all the calculus and the algebra and all of that stuff, okay? Um, one of the other things I did was expose them to the soap opera Days of Our Lives because Because when I was a kid and I was sick and at home, I got addicted to this thing and but it taught me a very important lesson because I'm an empath because I'm so like, I feel things so strongly that when I see something on TV like that.
[00:03:39] Fawn: You know, and I see people lying or like scheming, and I, and I, I really felt it, like I would watch this show and I'd go, Oh my God, if only you had not lied. If only you had not schemed, everything would have turned out fine. So I wanted to teach that lesson [00:04:00] to our kids, so I had them watch The Days of Our Lives.
[00:04:02] Fawn: But here's another thing that I learned, aside from just don't lie. And don't scheme, and don't seek revenge. I also learned that depending on who's writing it and how it's written, you can go from hating and being scared of a character to totally rooting for them and loving them. In like, Just an hour.
[00:04:25] MATT: And sometimes it's literally just the backing music. But where does that take us as far as confirmation bias goes? No, 
[00:04:30] Fawn: it has nothing to do with the music. Because I'm just saying, you said that people, once they form an opinion, it's very hard for them to change. And I, and I want to say that's not true.
[00:04:42] Fawn: Because it depends on propaganda. It depends on writing. It depends on how all of a sudden something is being explained to you in a certain way. Or, some, I don't know, you, you know, like, in the soap opera, it's written a certain way. Well, okay. And all of a [00:05:00] sudden, you change your mind. 
[00:05:01] MATT: Okay, that's very fair.
[00:05:02] MATT: However, welcome to the world now. And welcome to, it's a new term, I learned it today, the filter bubble. What's that? It's the echo chamber. It's, if you go looking for anything, Out on the webs, you are going to get out on the webs, out on YouTube, out on Facebook. You are gonna get confirming stories. So if you ask, well, that's like the law are UFO of Attraction's real?
[00:05:29] MATT: The Law of Attraction. Hold on. If you ask, are UFOs real? You are gonna get presented with so much evidence that they're real. If you say, are UFOs fake? You're gonna get presented with evidence that UFOs are fake. Got it. Yeah. You know, they, they posted a study where. It's like, yeah, and it's simple, anybody can do this.
[00:05:49] Fawn: But that also goes with talking to people, right? Like, with kids, right? If you, you can sway a person's, answer. If you ask a certain way. [00:06:00] You know, was this person mean to you? Yeah, yeah they were. Do you love your children? Do you know what I'm saying, that whole thing? Oh, of course. Well, yes I do. You know what I'm saying?
[00:06:10] Fawn: As opposed to, do your children drive you crazy? Why, yes, they do. It's all in the way it's asked. Would you do 
[00:06:17] MATT: anything for your kids? 
[00:06:18] Fawn: Why, yes, I would. 
[00:06:20] MATT: Are your kids the devil incarnate? Yes, they are. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Just kidding. Well, the, the trick is, is understanding. And, and why, why do you suppose we, we do this
[00:06:37] MATT: confirmation bias because now you're almost accepting you're inches away from accepting it. Do you know why evolutionarily speaking why that makes sense? 
[00:06:45] Fawn: Because we have no time someone has to make the fire you take care of it. I'll take care of this We gotta survive here. So I trust you 
[00:06:53] MATT: right so 
[00:06:55] Fawn: No, is that right?
[00:06:56] Fawn: Oh, yes, really? We 
[00:06:57] MATT: need to process information quickly We [00:07:00] need to protect our self esteem 
[00:07:02] Fawn: Wait, how does that come into it? What do you mean? 
[00:07:06] MATT: I can't be wrong. I can't be wrong. Why not? Who cares? Because it damages the little Matt inside me. 
[00:07:15] Fawn: So what? Uh, uh, 
[00:07:15] MATT: uh, uh, uh. We're talking about most people again. 
[00:07:19] Fawn: I know, but so what?
[00:07:20] Fawn: Why do you think that's so important to be right? 
[00:07:25] MATT: Because it also minimizes what's called, you're going to love this one, cognitive dissonance. 
[00:07:32] Fawn: We did a show on that and I don't remember 
[00:07:34] MATT: what that was. And that's when our brain gets all scrambled because all of a sudden we find out that, like, it's like when you watch the movie The Matrix, and you're watching them bebop along and you're like, you want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes, and then you find out the real story behind The Matrix, it's that moment where your reality flips upside down.
[00:07:54] MATT: And all of a sudden it's like, Oh my god, I've been so wrong about this one particular subject. [00:08:00] And then you have to figure out, and I do this, this happens to me frequently so it's a bizarre thing, but it's literally like I have to rebuild my view of reality to accommodate this new piece of data.
[00:08:13] MATT: Whatever that piece of data is, provided I accept it completely and utterly as truth. So it's difficult, it's challenging, it's hard. So, like, when I was in college, Vegans. Oh, vegans. Vegans were weird, okay fine, accept that. But, I didn't really understand what a vegan truly was. And I still remember to this day, hearing somebody describe a vegan as, yes, they must eat meat though, and me having to say, well, I suppose they do.
[00:08:44] MATT: Because I just needed them to shut up, because their whole reality was flawed. But, I always thought of the food as being very dry. Like, not wet. Well, to be 
[00:08:53] Fawn: fair, to be fair, it was. Like, not, before we were born. Remember there was a restaurant [00:09:00] called The Good Earth or something like that?
[00:09:02] Fawn: And I remember going there as a kid once in a while. And It tasted weird and gross, you know, and it was vegan. Now that I think about it, but they didn't have the term or the word vegan back then. Yeah, it was gross. I mean, think about all the tofu dishes. Everything was dry. Right. It tasted like cardboard.
[00:09:21] Fawn: Well, 
[00:09:21] MATT: hold on, hold on, hold on. But now I understand that it's much more subtle and nuanced. And my reality had to kind of flip upside down because of it. You know, and it's, it's, that's cognitive dissonance. So we need to minimize that because there's too much coming at us. Welcome to the world of, you know, if you go looking for information, you are going to get buried, right?
[00:09:44] Fawn: Yeah. 
[00:09:46] MATT: Oh my goodness. 
[00:09:47] Fawn: It sucks too though. Well, first of all, what was this called again? This cognitive, what? 
[00:09:53] MATT: Cognitive dissonance was the quote confusing. That's what you just described. You have to rewrite your reality. Yeah. Confirmation [00:10:00] bias is what we're talking about. I 
[00:10:00] Fawn: think, but I think cognitive dis, what, how do you say it again?
[00:10:04] Fawn: Cognitive dissonance. Dissonance. That one. I think it's happening a lot right now, maybe, or is it just me? Everybody's 
[00:10:13] MATT: in the filter bubble now. 
[00:10:15] Fawn: Well, huh, are they though? 
[00:10:18] MATT: We don't have No, 
[00:10:20] Fawn: I want to say that's what I'm so sorry to interrupt. Go ahead. 
[00:10:23] MATT: We don't have a Walter Cronkite telling us the truth. Who do you trust?
[00:10:27] MATT: Who do you trust to tell you the truth? 
[00:10:29] Fawn: Nobody. 
[00:10:30] MATT: Exactly. So now then the question is, what panel of people do you trust to tell you the truth? And are there, do you trust this person on this subject? Do you trust this person? What if two of them disagree? What if, what if, what if? It's too much. 
[00:10:46] Fawn: I forgot what I was gonna say, but I was gonna say, I don't remember, but, uh, it's really hard right now.
[00:10:53] Fawn: You were talking about now everyone's in a filter bubble, and I want to say, is that really true though? [00:11:00] Because I feel like, let's take the elections in the United States. Why did the majority actually vote a certain way all of a sudden? Why? Why? Well, I can tell you, even for me, I ended up, I don't know if I came to an understanding or if I don't know how it happened, but all of a sudden I'm like, yeah, no, they're right about this.
[00:11:24] Fawn: Whereas I was totally against them. I'm not, I'm not talking about the whole, the whole shebang. I'm not talking about the whole thing, but I'm just saying certain things. I was like, maybe I was wrong. Or maybe I had the wrong information, thinking all along they had the wrong information. I'm just saying it keeps going back and forth for me.
[00:11:45] Fawn: And I just want to cry. I want to give up. I give up. 
[00:11:48] MATT: So you've rewritten your reality. You went through cognitive dissonance. I don't even Your world flipped upside down. You had to figure out how to make it make sense. 
[00:11:56] Fawn: I haven't even been to the point of trying to make it make sense. I feel [00:12:00] like I'm walking in a world of confetti.
[00:12:02] Fawn: It 
[00:12:02] MATT: sounds 
[00:12:03] Fawn: like 
[00:12:03] MATT: you have, though, on some 
[00:12:04] Fawn: level. No, everything is all up in the air. 
[00:12:06] MATT: You're faced with the empirical fact of, you know, who won, who lost. What, you know, in dealing with, well, what does that mean? 
[00:12:15] Fawn: Honestly, what it means for me is, like, I'm not paying attention to any of it anymore. I'm just going to figure out our own bubble.
[00:12:24] MATT: Spoken like a true American. I voted every four years, every two years, whenever it is, and now I'm done. 
[00:12:30] Fawn: No, I'm not done. What I'm, okay, what I am done with is looking as a teamwork kind of situation. I'm like, all right, we're going to have to do this on our own. You know, our little family, we're going to have to stick together and figure things out for each other and make our lives the way we would like to create it.
[00:12:54] Fawn: So I'm not, I'm not, what did you say I was doing? 
[00:12:59] MATT: Resetting [00:13:00] your reality, going through cognitive dissonance. No, no, no, no, 
[00:13:01] Fawn: after that. I'm not, I'm not, I don't think I'm being a typical American where I'm saying. Oh. He said, I don't care anymore. I voted, so there. No, I'm just realizing it didn't matter. Right?
[00:13:16] Fawn: So 
[00:13:17] MATT: Okay, you're proving my point, Typical American. 
[00:13:22] Fawn: Okay, so I have to take things into my own hands. I have to figure out how we're going to stay healthy. I'm going to have to figure out how we're going to be free and loving and have a peaceful environment within our bubble. 
[00:13:40] MATT: Right. 
[00:13:41] Fawn: Right. Is that a typical American?
[00:13:42] Fawn: I 
[00:13:43] MATT: don't. Yes. I would, I would argue absolutely yes. 
[00:13:46] Fawn: Do we know what a typical American is anymore though, honey? 
[00:13:50] MATT: Well, we, we all believe that there is no such thing anymore, but. 
[00:13:54] Fawn: I don't even know. 
[00:13:56] Fawn: So veering it back to, what was it called again? [00:14:00] 
[00:14:00] MATT: Confirmation bias. Oh my goodness.
[00:14:04] MATT: Yes. So veering it back. Dot, dot, dot. Ah, yes. Okay. Okay. So. It's actually funny, I actually wanted to start with a couple personal anecdotes of Go ahead. Occasions where people had confirmation bias and it ran afoul on them. 
[00:14:22] Fawn: Okay, go ahead. 
[00:14:23] MATT: And most of them deal with 
[00:14:24] Fawn: Please, tell me. Tell us. 
[00:14:27] MATT: Okay. So, as it turns out, and I forgot about this, I happened to bring this up with you this week.
[00:14:33] MATT: Ah. So. I'm who I am, right? And I don't necessarily pay attention to where I slot, how I fit, and all the rest of it. I just kind of be bop through life. I like to feel like at a reasonably early age, aside from being angry at everything, I knew who my inner Popeye was. So I was just bebopping along and doing my thing, right?
[00:14:56] MATT: And my thing involved [00:15:00] University Mathematics in high school. It involved being in the advanced track for English. It involved me being in, God help me, the marching band. Okay? And I found out Can I 
[00:15:11] Fawn: just say, you looked hot. Like Looking at pictures of you from back then. I 
[00:15:17] MATT: looked like a member. First of all.
[00:15:18] MATT: I looked like a Peter Frampton or something, but yeah, go ahead. 
[00:15:21] Fawn: Um, actually I don't know who that is. I mean if I do, the name doesn't, I need to see a picture. But you were like the epitome of the rock and roll guy. Long hair. The ripped jeans, the fedora sometimes. You know, you have, such as our kids say Riz, you know, but like charisma.
[00:15:46] MATT: But I wasn't the epitome of a, of a rock and roller. 
[00:15:50] Fawn: That's because you lived in a small town on the outskirts of No, 
[00:15:53] MATT: we had 
[00:15:54] Fawn: our rock 
[00:15:54] MATT: and 
[00:15:54] Fawn: rollers. I didn't hang out with 
[00:15:56] MATT: them. 
[00:15:57] Fawn: You are your own thing even now [00:16:00] though. Exactly. But, but looking at pictures of you. Very rock and roll. Alright, heavy metal, whatever.
[00:16:06] Fawn: But I didn't 
[00:16:06] MATT: hang out, I didn't go smoking over there by the highway. No, I'm just saying the look. The look, yes. But, you know, I would go into my classes. I'm just trying to paint a picture for our friends. Other people would go into their classes. Well, that's the whole point. There is no picture to paint.
[00:16:22] MATT: That's the biggest problem, is that, guess what? As it found out, Mr. Escalante, Mr. E, told me that, um, uh, he was my senior, uh, English teacher. 
[00:16:37] Fawn: Was he a friend or a foe? 
[00:16:38] MATT: Oh, he was a friend. He was, he was like brand spanking new to teaching at that point. He had been student taught for a year and then he was teaching for real.
[00:16:45] MATT: So he was like 22, 23, and I was like 17. So, you know, we weren't necessarily so different. 
[00:16:52] Fawn: So almost a peer. 
[00:16:53] MATT: I wouldn't have described it that way then, but looking back, maybe ish. But, uh, [00:17:00] yeah, he told me that this had happened two years in a row, but I came up as a topic in the teacher's lounge. Wow. Because they were like, okay, who is this kid?
[00:17:13] MATT: Who is this Matthew Anderson? Why is he even in my class? Believe it or not. What 
[00:17:18] Fawn: does that mean? Like they, why would they say that? 
[00:17:21] MATT: Not a poindexter. Not a, not a, what, what do they call it, a grind is what, how Herman Hess would have said it. But, uh, uh, somebody out for good grades, somebody out to please the teacher, somebody out to 
[00:17:32] Fawn: Was this upon first meeting you or were you in their class for a while now?
[00:17:37] MATT: Well, okay, so Cause I mean, if 
[00:17:38] Fawn: it was a while, you were a great student. 
[00:17:40] MATT: It would come up about a month in. So, you know, all of a sudden it's like It's almost like they pay attention, not pay attention. I wouldn't be purposefully disruptful in class, but I wouldn't be hanging on my teachers every word either.
[00:17:58] MATT: You know, I would always try and sit in the [00:18:00] back. I would, you know, and I wasn't doing anything, but I wouldn't sit in my seat right. I wouldn't, you know, I was paying attention. 
[00:18:07] Fawn: Typical rock and roller. 
[00:18:09] MATT: Except. First of all, 
[00:18:10] Fawn: you're too tall for those, those seats. You had to stretch out. Like, were you like, you're like.
[00:18:16] Fawn: Your butt was at the edge, but like, you're almost lying down in the chair. Kind of stance? 
[00:18:22] MATT: No, I would sit, like, perpendicular to how you were supposed to. 
[00:18:27] Fawn: Oh, so your legs are in the aisle. Yeah, and I would move my seat back 
[00:18:31] MATT: a couple of inches right at the start of class. Yeah, because you're tall. No, just because.
[00:18:35] MATT: But anyways. Um, but, uh. 
[00:18:39] Fawn: You needed leg room. 
[00:18:41] MATT: Yeah, 
[00:18:41] Fawn: whatever. For your charisma. 
[00:18:42] MATT: Whatever. But, um. So you distracted me. 
[00:18:48] Fawn: No, okay. You were saying that they were like, what is he doing here? What is 
[00:18:52] MATT: he doing here? And then I'd take a test and I do reasonably well to very well on it. And then it would just be like, they were like, what?[00:19:00] 
[00:19:00] Fawn: Confused. Like 
[00:19:00] MATT: I wasn't allowed. 
[00:19:02] Fawn: Right. Right. Again. Like 
[00:19:04] MATT: I wasn't allowed. Like. Who I was did not fit into the picture of where I was. Dun, dun, dun! And my friends didn't fit. Perhaps who I should have been hanging out with. And, you know, my hobbies didn't agree with. 
[00:19:25] Fawn: Welcome to our marriage too though, right?
[00:19:27] Fawn: People look at us like, what are they doing together? How does that work? They think I'm the maid or the nanny when we walk around.
[00:19:39] MATT: I was going to make a snide comment, but I'm not going to because I'm not in the mood to get hurt. No, 
[00:19:43] Fawn: please go ahead. What were you going to say? 
[00:19:45] MATT: We got a vacuum. You got a vacuum down here. 
[00:19:49] Fawn: I do? 
[00:19:50] MATT: Teasing. Okay, yeah, you're 
[00:19:51] Fawn: right. 
[00:19:51] MATT: I'm teasing. Throw a ball 
[00:19:53] Fawn: over there. Okay. 
[00:19:54] MATT: Anyways. Yeah, so, so that was one occasion where, uh, yeah, [00:20:00] people's confirmation bias kind of smacks them in the face.
[00:20:03] MATT: Especially in math because, you know, math is really hard to grade it. Unfairly, English, maybe, but not math. And so the talk would be in the math class and would be start with the math teachers, and then it would go to the English teachers. And then all of a sudden everybody realized, Hey, maybe this kid's got maybe something on the ball.
[00:20:24] MATT: And this happened two years in a row. Ouch. Weird. Uncomfortable. But, you know, that's back in the days when I didn't necessarily view teachers as being quite human, right? Because they're teachers. Even Mr. E, looking back, yes he was. But, yeah, it actually really loosened me up. 
[00:20:43] Fawn: Well, okay, go back to what constitutes confirmation bias again, like quickly, what's the definition?
[00:20:52] MATT: Once you have your opinion, it's real hard to change it. 
[00:20:55] Fawn: That's, that's it? Yeah, that's it. That's the whole shebang? Yeah. [00:21:00] Well You were gonna say there was another one. 
[00:21:01] MATT: Well, yeah, of course, there is another one. There's always another one. But, I was a pretty nice kid. You know, I wouldn't be, you know, I wouldn't be like, Hey, man, let's go get high.
[00:21:10] MATT: Yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, I was always respectful to parents and, you know, my buddy Vince's parents liked me, my buddy Dave's parents reasonably liked me as much as they could, and on and on going forward, and, and that's another element, you know. We, we got in, as I like to tell my kids, we got in kid sized trouble, and only kid sized trouble.
[00:21:31] MATT: We didn't get in grown up trouble. 
[00:21:33] Fawn: And yet, your parents and your parents friends, it was the opposite, wasn't it? 
[00:21:37] MATT: Um, they were like They, they were, they were embarrassed for my parents. Wow, because they never got a chance to know me right period because you know, it's it's it's one of those things I mean my parents Set up kind of an iron curtain and you know All's I could do was just be me which just made me more and more frustrated and [00:22:00] angry
[00:22:00] Fawn: This also kind of goes along with what we were saying about the alpha and beta friends It can be because they assume Something about you, for whatever reason. Right. And they don't let you out of that box. Right. And I think that's where friendship starts breaking. For me, for sure. Mm hmm. Right. That's, that's, that's the line.
[00:22:24] Fawn: That is where I disappear. Like, if you constantly assume things about me based on your own whatever's in your head, and you're not letting me live, or you're not seeing my The way I am you a they either get really offended when They're proven wrong not by me, but by my actions, right? Like, oh, what do you mean?
[00:22:48] Fawn: You're a photographer like hello That's where we met Like we met at this workshop in New Mexico and you saw my portfolio and you saw whatever was happening with [00:23:00] me And then I didn't talk about it that much. I just worked and I was quiet about it and then You decided to do it and you're like you're a photographer.
[00:23:09] Fawn: What what do you mean? You're doing this job. I'm like What? Dude, I don't know if I'm making any sense. No, no, no. You're, you're, you're 100 percent right. But like, they get offended, you know? Like, um. 
[00:23:20] MATT: Cause they painted their picture of you, and they painted your box, and they want you to live inside of it.
[00:23:26] Fawn: And it happens all over the place. I remember somebody that I thought was my best friend for, for many, many, many years. When you and I got engaged, and it was about time to get married, like a few days before our wedding. Mm hmm. I remember how she was like, you've changed, or It's because she never thought I would find my love, or my true love, or anything.
[00:23:47] Fawn: Do you know what I'm saying? I do. And she, I felt like she always had that lorded over me. That I'm too much of a wild child. I don't know what she thought. Do you know what I'm saying? I do. I [00:24:00] don't even care. I didn't even care at that point. Cause I knew she was putting me in a box of limitation. Uh huh.
[00:24:06] Fawn: And um, But yeah, I mean, breakdown of friendship. But do you think that that's also what is breaking down our society right now? This confirmation bias? 
[00:24:18] MATT: Absolutely. Especially with the filter bubble. It's the filter bubble. 
[00:24:22] Fawn: Yeah. But like confirmation bias, it's happening in, in what 
[00:24:27] MATT: aspects? We don't, we don't like our beliefs challenged in any aspect of our lives.
[00:24:31] Fawn: Give examples. Political. 
[00:24:34] MATT: Yes. 
[00:24:34] Fawn: What else? 
[00:24:37] MATT: Spiritual. 
[00:24:38] Fawn: That's true, 
[00:24:39] MATT: yeah. Okay, you know, I mean, and, and it can literally be hard facts, too. I mean, really, Flat Earth Society? Really? Don't know, right? Where's, where's the proof that the world is flat? Because there's proof that the world is round. But again, have I [00:25:00] not seen that data because of, again, confirmation bias.
[00:25:03] MATT: Because I'm willing to discredit any evidence that's presented. 
[00:25:06] Fawn: And these are really smart people, by the way, who say the world is flat. And I am not the kind of person that's good at conversations like that because I feel like A, I either get attacked by them and then I can't continue the conversation or I don't know what the other or is but like it's just I've never really fully gone into that lane of like trying to have this person explain to me why it's a flat earth because I feel like they get so Angry and passionate that it's scary to me.
[00:25:41] Fawn: So I'm like, okay and Kind of change the subject, you know, right, 
[00:25:46] MATT: right Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's again hard. Um, there was a, there was a study done in 1979 where they had a whole bunch of people review a resume for a woman and. [00:26:00] Group A asked, would this person be a good salesperson? And Group B was asked, would this person make a good librarian?
[00:26:06] MATT: Based on the experience. Extrovert profession, introvert profession. Guess what? People asked to review her as a salesperson only really noticed the extroverted activities on her sheet. The people introverts only noticed the introverted activities on her resume. 
[00:26:23] Fawn: Okay, so we have, we have been talking about this.
[00:26:26] Fawn: What's the solution? 
[00:26:28] MATT: We have to be careful. We have to allow people to grow. We have to allow people to be themselves. And we have to try and go into everything with an open mind. I've worked with people who have been Star Wars nuts and I'm a Star Trek nut. I've worked with people, the guy, one of the guys I'm working with right now, he's a huge Tolkien head, like Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, all that kind of stuff.
[00:26:51] MATT: And that's fine. I've worked with a professional shooter before. I've worked with On and on and on. I've worked with all kinds of [00:27:00] people. I grew up in a very conservative house. All my friends houses were very liberal. Boom, boom. It's, it's about understanding that, the nuance, and understanding that there are at least two sides to every story.
[00:27:16] MATT: Even if you fervently believe in the story, even if you fervently believe in side A, and believe that is the only side, there is a flip side. And that goes with people too and sometimes the people who you think would make, you know, your greatest friends don't necessarily. Some of the dearest people I have met are people I've had very little to nothing that you could tell I have in common with them.
[00:27:47] MATT: But there's, there's, there's something else. There's something deeper. There's like a core belief maybe that's the same. 
[00:27:54] Fawn: We're in a situation right now with a friend where we've been, we've opened ourselves up [00:28:00] to their point of view. And. It's, it's, it's, it worked out fine, but now we're at a point where we're like, yeah, but does he open up to us the way we open up to him?
[00:28:17] Fawn: Open up as in not, you know, allowing space for the person to be who they are. And despite what you think, still gel Well, and I'm like, are they jelling well, really, I don't know. So I don't know, guys, , it's an interesting balancing act. Maybe it's called a balancing act. I don't know what it is, but we're working on it.
[00:28:43] Fawn: Let us know what you think. I mean. Good luck to us all. 
[00:28:47] MATT: Indeed. Gosh. Especially in the echo chamber society. If you are watching a ton of Fox News, check out MSNBC and vice versa. 
[00:28:56] Fawn: But they're both the same now, because I've been doing that. [00:29:00] And they're both the same as in, they're not saying anything really.
[00:29:03] Fawn: To me, that is what it feels like. So where do we go? 
[00:29:10] MATT: I don't know. Uh, The Economist, Financial Times. Another 
[00:29:13] Fawn: country. Another country. Maybe. And many other countries in their perspective. The Guardian and the Sun. I mean, I don't know. Guys, like I said, good luck to us all, please help.
[00:29:28] Fawn: It's a friendly world, welcome. Have a nice day. Okay, sounds good. No, I'm just kidding, I'm kidding. Have a beautiful every day. Have a nice every day. We'll talk to you soon. 
[00:29:39] MATT: Be well.