How to Argue Well in A Friendship - and Still Keep the Friendship

How to Argue in a Friendship

[00:00:00] FAWN: Hi. Welcome back everybody. Welcome back. Hello.

[00:00:04] MATT: How is everybody out there?

[00:00:06] MATT: I'm getting a head shake from Fawn.

[00:00:11] FAWN: Today's episode is brought to you by my friend Michelle Sillence from the uk. Michelle. Hi Michelle, is one of my voice, overacting Friends, and she sent me a message. She's like, wouldn't it be nice to do a podcast on how do you argue well, in a friendship?

[00:00:30] FAWN: Interesting indeed. Because we argue a lot, so we have something to say. I

[00:00:38] MATT: am delightful.

[00:00:40] FAWN: All right, let's start from the beginning.

[00:00:42] FAWN: because I will preface it with something that I've said all along. Something I learned a long time ago when I was, I thought in love with someone and all my good friends were like, what are you doing with this guy? This is horrible. And I would come back. I was very young, you guys, but I would come back with, but I love him.

[00:01:09] FAWN: Of course you did. Mm. Having some time back, I realized that was not love at all. But you know, let's just say that, that there is love. You can't have love, the love won't survive without compassion. So you can have a marriage, you can have a friendship, you can have whatever relationship that is with love.

[00:01:35] FAWN: But if there's no compassion in the mix, if the compassion leaves, then there's no unit to be had. There's no friendship. There's no marriage, there's no relationship without compassion. But what is compassion? It's, I think it's the ability to feel what the other person is feeling. And be able to do something about it.

[00:02:04] FAWN: Not get so trapped by the same feeling, but having the feeling, realizing the other person's feeling, and at the same time having some perspective, you know, still having a line to pull you out so you're not stuck in that same scenario that they're in. You know, cuz you can get trapped like quicksand.

[00:02:27] FAWN: Right. Right. Still having a lifeline of your own, where you have harnessed your own safety, whatever you wanna call it. Safety, health, mental health protection, basically. But at the same time, you're completely feeling with, the feeling is for that person, you're able to help because you're not sucked into it a hundred percent.

[00:02:53] FAWN: You're able to provide something rather than be enveloped in it. I think that's what compassion is,

[00:03:02] MATT: definitely. That is a part of it. But sometimes when I'm frustrated, I don't want anybody to come up with any answers. I know what the answer is. Oftentimes, we know what the answers are, we just don't want to hear it.

[00:03:14] FAWN: I, we are talking about something else. I'm not talking about answering your questions or like fixing your problems. I'm just talking about you're feeling what the person's feeling. Right. But not being stuck there.

[00:03:26] MATT: Not being stuck there, but you also said and be able to help them out.

[00:03:31] FAWN: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I don't want help out.

[00:03:34] FAWN: Look, you're, you're, you just jump to like, taking care of everything. That's not what I'm talking about. Just, just stay focused on what I'm saying. Okay. To have compassion is to feel what the other person is feeling. Mm-hmm. Without. Getting a hundred percent immersed and sucked into it where you can't get out.

[00:03:53] FAWN: Okay. Let's just leave it at that. Okay, that's fine. Okay. Because if you do that, then you can help. I'm not saying I'm here to fix your problems. I'm saying that at that point you're able to help because you have a different point of view. Mm-hmm. You have, you have a home that's safe, right to go back to, but yet you can totally feel

[00:04:15] FAWN: what the person is feeling. I'm talking in that physical home I'm talking about spiritual home. Do you know what I'm saying? You're balanced, is what I'm saying. Mm-hmm. Anyway, that's not where I wanna go with today's thing. Today's thing is how do you argue well, in a friendship, but I wanna take it back to when do you know that it's hopeless

[00:04:37] FAWN: first of all? When do you know that this friendship has ceased to exist that it's okay to walk away from.

[00:04:46] MATT: I'm glad you asked.

[00:04:47] FAWN: And believe me, I have plenty of experience in this department, you guys.

[00:04:51] MATT: Don't look at me like that.

[00:04:54] FAWN: All right. So what I find are repeated patterns, and I've noticed that throughout all the friendships in my life that I've had, there have always been repeated patterns

[00:05:08] FAWN: that occurred that finally for me was the, the last straw. Mm-hmm. You know? But now that I have a better perspective, I can spot repeated patterns, which goes back to, we've talked about this all along, you guys actually, like for example, one of the episodes we did is called the Notebook. Our episode is called The Notebook.

[00:05:29] FAWN: If you go back to that, it talks about how to mentally or actually physically, we talked about taking notes about the people in our lives taking mental notes, like, what is this person really like? What are their triggers? What, um, what makes this person happy? What is this person going through? What have they said to me?

[00:05:51] FAWN: Right? Mm-hmm. Because, People you meet, they'll tell you immediately what they're all about. And remember, years ago, we all learned this. When people tell you who they are, please believe them.

[00:06:03] MATT: And don't be surprised when later on they show you what they

[00:06:07] FAWN: told you because you think you're the exception. You can maneuver differently or things will be different with you because it's you.

[00:06:15] FAWN: It's wonderful you, yes, but this person, this is their pattern. So respect that .Much like we also did an episode about the frog and the scorpion. How do you know when to trust someone, realize what their true nature is and respect that? Alright, so. Guys, we've been on the air for over three years now, I think.

[00:06:40] FAWN: Right? We've talked about all this. but I always wanna do it with a different perspective as we live life. So one of the patterns, like I said, is, one of the things is to look at the repeated patterns. The same signs pop up, like for example, one of our friends who we're no longer friends with had an issue and always had an issue with boundaries.

[00:07:06] FAWN: And one of the patterns that I kept noticing, and I kept it to myself, but about this person, I noticed that they were quite selfish and not in a healthy way. The kind of selfish where they didn't think that they were wrong. That if they did someone dirt and that someone was upset, for them, that they would end that friendship because the person got upset because they were acting selfishly.

[00:07:35] FAWN: And when the person said, Hey, this was selfish, and I asked when you stay at my house, make sure that the cat comes in before the sunset. But instead you chose to go to a spa to take better care of yourself to she, oh, she overused the word self-care. She was a therapist for her self-care she needed to go to the spa right then and there.

[00:08:00] FAWN: Mm-hmm. And she didn't. She was house sitting and she did not let the cat back in. Right. And the person she was house sitting for. Was upset, genuinely upset. Like, you can't do that because I live in the woods and hawks all kinds of, and we know this from personal experience too, Matt, like there are birds that will come up and pick up a small animal.

[00:08:24] FAWN: Yes, they will. Right. So, she broke up with this friend because this friend was upset and she couldn't understand why. Mm-hmm. I'm like, wow, you can't understand that. That's legit. That's. That's, you're not listening. You're

[00:08:39] MATT: not paying attention to even your own

[00:08:40] FAWN: behavior. But that's a pattern I noticed.

[00:08:43] FAWN: And I thought, oh, well, she'll never do that with me. Of course not. Right. But it, it did happened. And it happened and she broke it off with me, right? And I'm like, okay, well thank you. Bye. Okay. Right. Um, so you have to look for, there are. Sometimes when you, when you look at these patterns, you realize some things are so deep-rooted with people.

[00:09:10] FAWN: They're so deep-rooted that they can't be resolved. There are certain things, there are certain, issues. So when you are taking notes, when you're realizing, maybe taking notes is a terrible way to say it, but when you are watching people, when you're learning about people, right, you can see

[00:09:27] FAWN: what their triggers are. You can see what hurts them. You can see what their challenges are. There are deep rooted issues in their lives, and they could be a therapist, they could be a psychologist, whatever, but they're still human, right? And they still have these deep rooted things. And sometimes, here's my theory that I've had, and I've never talked about this before, Matt, but.

[00:09:56] FAWN: I feel that sometimes people choose you to be their friend because, um, they choose you to be in a relationship with because they can practice unleashing their hurts and their boundaries, and this can happen in so many different ways. For example, I think one way is some people become friends with you, and they may not do this consciously.

[00:10:24] FAWN: In most cases it's totally subconscious, but they pick you because you are safe. You are safe for them to practice the art of saying no, for example, right? For setting boundaries or for breaking up with. Because perhaps their spirit, their soul feels like they wanna break up with someone for once or they wanna make a stance for once you know, and stick up for what's right, knowing that you are the safe person to do that with.

[00:10:58] FAWN: So,

[00:10:59] MATT: wow,

[00:11:00] FAWN: what?

[00:11:00] MATT: That's messed up,

[00:11:01] FAWN: but do you understand?

[00:11:02] MATT: Yeah, I do.

[00:11:03] FAWN: Can you see how that happens though?

[00:11:04] FAWN: I,

[00:11:04] MATT: I totally get it.

[00:11:07] FAWN: Like with me, I'm gentle and I don't like confrontation mostly. Don't, don't get, I mean, it depends because don't look at me like that, but you, you never know when I can finally not be gentle.

[00:11:18] FAWN: I'm just kidding. Do you know what I'm saying? Look down. Now I'm, I can be a wild card, but for the most part, I am gentle and I'm not going to fight with you and it's easy for you to perhaps choose me to say, you are breaking a boundary right here, even though I'm not. Do you know what I'm saying? It's, it's easy to unleash on me because if you do, I'll just quietly disappear.

[00:11:41] FAWN: I just won't be your friend. I'm not gonna have a big fight with you

[00:11:44] MATT: and or you'll contemplate it seriously and, and really try and understand where they're coming from.

[00:11:50] FAWN: True. But if they keep unleashing,

[00:11:53] MATT: oh yeah.

[00:11:53] FAWN: Their stuff, I don't have time for that.

[00:11:55] MATT: And who does?

[00:11:56] FAWN: Well, people do. People still do it out of obligation to like, we're family, but we've been friends forever.

[00:12:05] FAWN: Whatever. People stick around for various different reasons. I don't, I don't if it's unhealthy. I have things to do, guys. I have things to do. So anyway, so that, I don't know if you want to go deeper into that thought of like being chosen as the person because you're a safe option for them to practice.

[00:12:29] FAWN: Like I said, it's subconscious. Yeah,

[00:12:31] MATT: no, I totally get that. And you know, sometimes I think about maybe, um, work relationships sometimes can fall into that. And then, you know, somebody knows they're gonna move on and then they stop communicating with you at all. But see, that's, which is subtly different, but still

[00:12:48] FAWN: the same.

[00:12:48] FAWN: But that's, that's very conscious, that's deliberate, that's planned. I'm, I'm talking on a soul level. This is what happens. But that's just, um, one aspect, repeated patterns. Then, you know, how do you know what's another reason why people will realize or how to know that this friendship is hopeless. You have personal attacks.

[00:13:11] FAWN: They attack you personally. They annihilate your character. They say, you know, we've talked about this on other episodes. There are certain words you use, certain phrases you cannot come back from. Right. There's no apologizing your way out of it. It's done. It is irreparable harm. Is that the word?

[00:13:33] FAWN: That's a good word. Then there's also the refusal to listen or to compromise. How many friendships have I had? I'm like, listen guys, this is bothering me. Listen guys, this isn't working for me. They didn't listen over and over and over again until I just walked away quietly, you know? Well,

[00:13:55] MATT: and that comes from kind of almost a, a refusal to, really pay attention to who you are.

[00:14:02] MATT: As opposed to you being a fashion accessory. Mm-hmm. Versus being an integral part of,

[00:14:08] FAWN: mm-hmm. Which leads me to the other thing, how to know when it's hopeless is when there's a loss of trust. Do you trust this person?

[00:14:19] FAWN: And also, the last one, one of the last ones for me was the lack of effort to reconcile. Which usually is for me, like after I've tried all, I could, you know, I've tried different ways for them to listen. Mm-hmm. I've tried different ways to express myself. Right. I tried to be calm and then I'm done. There's a lack of effort to reconcile for me

[00:14:45] MATT: and to me, all of those things can be kind of summed up in one word.

[00:14:49] MATT: And that word is R E S P E C T. Respect,

[00:14:52] FAWN: respect. Oh my God. So here, perfect honey, because this leads us to Michelle's idea for this show today. How do you argue well, in a friendship or in a relationship? Right. Number one, stay respectful. Stay focused on the issue, not the person when you're having an argument.

[00:15:14] FAWN: So no personal attacks, just the issue at hand. Leave the person out of it. As much as you can. Listen actively, like really listen and listening is also looking, look at the person. It's like also studying, acting. You're not trying to remember your line. You want the person to recite their line and say what they're saying.

[00:15:47] FAWN: And be in that instead of how am I going to respond to this? Or This is what I really wanna say, or This is how I wanna look. Right? Or

[00:15:54] MATT: just waiting for them to give you a pause so you can throw in whatever it is you

[00:15:58] FAWN: wanna say. Right. Because, and the, this is the part that I've been talking about for years is because we have lost the art of friendship.

[00:16:07] FAWN: That no one hangs out. No one truly has like really great friendships. I won't say no one for the majority I think this is our society's gone in a way where we're so worked up for several reasons. We're working too much. We have too much emotion there. We haven't communicated that well. We haven't been talking to people about things.

[00:16:30] FAWN: Mm-hmm. And so many things are happening on such a rapid scale that you don't have time to sit there and analyze what's going on with you, and then you can't talk about it. So when you do meet someone, there's so much to talk about. So when you're having a conversation, there's such a huge list and like, I don't know if this happens to you all, but when I'm sitting with friends and we have so much to talk about and there seems to be so much we have in common.

[00:16:55] FAWN: That we can't direct a conversation to just go forward. We're like exploding in a million different directions. And it's funny, you know, but it goes into so many different directions and we never quite come to a conclusion with a thought we had. Does that, am I making sense? Do you understand what I'm saying?

[00:17:17] FAWN: That totally

[00:17:18] MATT: makes sense. It's like having like a list of things that you have to get done in the course of a day. Yeah. And you're almost overwhelmed by the list. So you kind of start one thing and then you start it, but you never finish anything on your list. And so it No, never. Your list

[00:17:31] FAWN: just keeps growing and it's just because you wanna catch each other up on everything.

[00:17:35] FAWN: Right? Right. But because we don't have the luxury to do that in our society. What are you gonna do? So anyway, which is really interesting because our friends who listen to the podcast, they're actually like family friends when we get together with them. Have you noticed? They don't, they don't wanna hear us talk because they're always listening to the podcast.

[00:17:58] FAWN: So we, they've, we have had our time

[00:18:03] FAWN: and I have to remember that I'm like, why aren't they letting me talk? That's

[00:18:07] MATT: really funny cuz I hadn't thought about that before.

[00:18:10] FAWN: Uh, I totally have been noticing that because I've

[00:18:12] MATT: had people connect with me saying, yeah, I've, I just realized I probably should call you. I've been listening to you now for dot, dot, dot, and I realized I haven't actually

[00:18:21] FAWN: spoken with you.

[00:18:22] FAWN: Oh. And Mal Martin was like, well, I already know what's going on with you. Cause I listened to the podcast because we were talking about getting together. She's like, well, I already know about you. I'm like, you do.

[00:18:34] MATT: What do you know? What do you think? You

[00:18:36] FAWN: know? Oh my goodness. So listening actively, which means really looking as well, feeling everything, you know, for their perspective, acknowledging their feelings.

[00:18:47] FAWN: So these are how to argue well, right? Avoid blame and defensiveness. Remember we did an episode called Apologia. I guess that goes to how to apologize, but like how to properly do it. But we also talked about. Avoiding blame and defensiveness and, one of the things to argue well for me is to take a break.

[00:19:10] FAWN: But not to just leave, but when you're really emotional, when you're really upset, nothing could, nothing good can come out of that. Oh, much like, that's true. One of my rules is I don't go out after 10:00 PM. Because nothing good happens out there in the city at a certain time. For me, for me, um, when you are emotional, when you're at that heightened state mm-hmm.

[00:19:35] FAWN: Nothing's working. You need a break. You need quiet. And remember what you learn a lot when you have a baby. But remember when the babies would like be howling, screaming, and we changed their diaper. We, we made sure there was nothing harming them. We made sure they were not hungry. They, they were fed.

[00:19:56] FAWN: We made sure, oh, it's not the burping. They don't need to burp anymore. Like you go down the list of what could be bothering them. Right? Right. And then what you came up with is sometimes they need a point of view that's different. Change the environment. Remember? Yep. Say you would take the babies and you would go out for a walk or a drive or just have someone else hold them because you just need a change of energy.

[00:20:22] FAWN: So a different point of view will help if you're, when you're having an argument. And that doesn't mean just leave or break up the friendship or break up the relationship. I'm just saying get yourself quiet, get yourself to a completely different, perspective. However way you can do that, sitting outside, going for a walk, meditating, watching a TV show, something that will give you a different point of view, like change the room atmosphere.

[00:20:56] FAWN: Am I right? Do you wanna add anything to

[00:20:58] MATT: that step away from the conversation you're currently having that you're

[00:21:01] FAWN: fighting about? But see if you do that, that could be a deal breaker. I have to go to the bathroom.

[00:21:06] MATT: I need to get a glass of

water.

[00:21:08] FAWN: But that's, but you're putting a timeline on

[00:21:10] MATT: it to, and I completely understand that, but these are ways of doing that and still, you know, avoiding, somebody taking that as a, a moment to, you know, escalate.

[00:21:23] FAWN: , you have to have some finesse about how you ask for this time.

[00:21:28] MATT: Depends on the situation, of course.

[00:21:30] FAWN: Right? And one of the other things is to apologize sincerely. Go back to our episode called Apologia, which goes back to, socrates. Socrates. Right. Apologia. And I think one of the number one rules is to stay calm.

[00:21:50] FAWN: Don't take anything personally when some, whoa. But

[00:21:53] MATT: if you're fighting, it's already personal,

[00:21:55] FAWN: but you have to remember to not take it personally. It doesn't matter if they're picking out the fact that your hair sucks or whatever. I don't know. Something that, what is assassinating your character, whatever it is, you have to remember that that is a trigger for this person, right?

[00:22:15] FAWN: So they're being triggered. Yes, you may have done something terrible, but they're still triggered.

[00:22:26] FAWN: I don't know. They're probably

[00:22:27] MATT: triggered by something that's happened to them in the past.

[00:22:30] FAWN: Right. And you do have to have responsibility for that. And, and, and in some ways you have to be loving about it. You have to acknowledge that. You have to know that that's a major important thing. Right. It's like a living creature.

[00:22:48] FAWN: At the same time, try not to take things personally. Again. Let's use the example of having babies. Oh dear. And now teenagers, right? Mm-hmm. Oh my goodness. They could all of a sudden just snap, right? Oh my Lord, Lord, and like Unleash Fury upon you.

[00:23:11] MATT: Now, where did you learn No unleashed fur. Nevermind. I actually know where that came from, but that's a whole other

[00:23:17] FAWN: story. I'm just saying like things can come at you of course. Right. And you the best ways to not take it personally. I mean, I learned this in martial arts when I would be sparring and my sparring partner, who was like a major black belt with many degrees of the black belt, was like, you lose, you lose whack, whack, whack on my head.

[00:23:40] FAWN: And each time she whacked me. I was like, Hmm, I'm gonna get her back. You know, I'm okay. I'm, I'm still standing. I'm gonna

[00:23:47] MATT: get her back. I'm still standing point. That's a healthy

[00:23:51] FAWN: attitude. But, but after everyone, after every comeback that I had, she's like, see, you're losing. I'm like, what are you talking about?

[00:24:00] FAWN: I'm losing. I'm good. I'm getting more energized with every time you're whacking me. She's like, no, you are actually exuding anger. I'm like, and I thought to myself, I didn't say it out loud, but I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna use my anger. Right?

[00:24:17] MATT: Well, there you go.

[00:24:18] MATT: Dark side of the force.

[00:24:19] FAWN: Right? And she said, no, because you're leaking energy

[00:24:22] FAWN: when you do that, you're losing. You're losing on many levels when you get angry. So you have to be calm. Don't take it personally. Right? That's when you can gather yourself. Maintain yourself and grow energetically. So that's what I mean. Don't take things personally even. I mean, yeah, it is personal. I'm being whacked on the head.

[00:24:48] FAWN: Right. But be, don't take it personally.

[00:24:52] FAWN: Stay calm, and when all else fails mm-hmm. When all else fails, you guys. Take the Fawn and Matt approach.

[00:25:03] MATT: Oh dear. What's that?

[00:25:04] FAWN: You don't know what it's, you guys, every time we fight and it gets to a point where it's just absurd or it's just, it's just too heated. Someone has to yell love is winning. The emphasis on love, not on winning.

[00:25:26] FAWN: Not love is winning, like you have to win, but love is winning. Love is winning. And usually that makes us laugh, right? And if it doesn't make us laugh, will we remember? Right? Because seriously, like one of us will yell, love is winning. Love

[00:25:43] FAWN: is winning. That is definitely true.

[00:25:48] FAWN: Ouch. You know, like, what was I too loud or I just like No, you're good.

[00:25:52] MATT: Just stings a little. What do you mean?

[00:25:55] FAWN: What do you mean?

[00:25:56] MATT: What do you mean? No, it stings a little. It's just, I just remember points in time where that's

[00:26:00] FAWN: been said well, it's kind of like tapping in martial arts. I know when you know this is going to break a bone or joint or knock you out, you have to tap.

[00:26:12] FAWN: You have to tap out, but you're not tapping out in a way that says, Hey, this is hurting me. Like it. It is just by, by yelling, by someone yelling love is winning, it's like this, this needs to stop. There's no winning because the only way to win is love is winning. Love is winning. Love wins, not us because obviously we're fighting.

[00:26:33] FAWN: Right? Love is winning. So that's my, my very shortened, uh, step-by-step of how do you argue well, in a friendship? Did I actually answer the question? How do you argue? Well, Well it

[00:26:48] MATT: was, I mean I went down, this is how you argue. Well, and then immediately to, you know, what happens when somebody gets like really ticked off, which is totally fair cuz that's where a lot of conversations go.

[00:26:59] MATT: You know, obviously arguing well have your facts, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's, it's, you know, that's very, that's so hyper specific versus going through and talking about, you know, how do you recover when y'all are like starting to get serious and emotionally heated. Yeah. Well, You know, to me that's kind of the key central point.

[00:27:17] MATT: You touched on just about everything that I had thought about and, a lot of the stuff is extremely basic. A lot of the, a lot of my thoughts are very, very basic. It's, you want to be very, I, I call it have clean statements. No sarcasm, no insult, no subtle anything.

[00:27:37] MATT: No, Dredging up completely unrelated issue. Mm-hmm. Where the other person was cleanly wrong because at this point in time, you're just trying to win an argument. It's not about winning an argument. It's about,

[00:27:51] FAWN: it's about understanding. Yeah. It's about, it's

[00:27:53] MATT: about personal growth. It's about growth in a relationship.

[00:27:57] MATT: It's, it's not about I'm right and you're wrong. It's about, these are the things I think. And if those are the things you think and they disagree, well, let's try and puzzle

[00:28:07] FAWN: it out. Yeah. It's again, it's about being seen, heard, right. Being listened to. Yes. I could still be wrong, but if you just listen to me and have the compassion to understand where I'm coming from, that's good.

[00:28:22] FAWN: I don't have to be Right. Right. But could you understand why I'm so upset? Right. That's all. You don't have to say, okay, you're right now. No, but if you could understand my pain. That's where the compassion thing comes up, right? That's where what I, that's why I started the show with, you could have love, that's great, but if you don't have compassion mixed with it, a partner with it right then you can't.

[00:28:47] MATT: And to be, you can't, you have to have an

[00:28:48] FAWN: equal part of respect. You cannot have, you cannot have a good argument, right? That will still maintain a relationship if the compassion is not in there. Definitely true. Um, There was something else I wanted to say. Oh, I was gonna say some. You know, and you have to go with how you're feeling.

[00:29:09] FAWN: You have to go with how much you're willing to withstand. Sometimes I can swallow my pride and even if I feel like I'm clearly correct and the person is totally messing me with me and not understanding and just being a jerk and not even willing to understand me. And they're so clearly upset. But if I have the capacity at that point I can say, let, let's just say, okay, I pull into a parking spot and this person is like, look at the way you parked.

[00:29:42] FAWN: I can't park my car. Now

[00:29:44] FAWN: if I have the wherewithal to like look at them and go, oh my goodness, you are right. Look at the way I parked. I parked like a fool. Look at me. Look at you like, I totally like you can't park. Like how can you park your car now? Because I am a fool right now. Like, look at what I did. That is a foolish parking job.

[00:30:08] FAWN: Let me correct that. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. I go overboard to emphasize my wrong, right?

[00:30:17] MATT: Where you have capacity to do so

[00:30:19] FAWN: that I can change it. But like if the person says, you're such an idiot, look at what you did. They can choose that to be the end of the friendship. Do you know what I'm saying?

[00:30:29] FAWN: Mm-hmm. But if you go, you're right. Look at like, it's a way to diffuse the situation, even if you're not friends with that person, if like this is happening in real life, right? Mm-hmm. You can diffuse the situation by basically letting them know. And letting them know you feel their outrage. Right. Even if you're the one who caused it.

[00:30:47] FAWN: Right. But for me, I don't know about you guys. I always keep a score. I do. I'm like, how many times did I have to do that? How many times did they overreact? And I went out of my way to also overreact the opposite way. Mm-hmm. So they feel better. Right. And if it's. If it's not even, or if it's not balanced in some way somehow, then for me, after a while, it's the end.

[00:31:20] FAWN: Right?

[00:31:20] MATT: Yeah, no, and I totally get it. And there again, even in coming up with the contrived example, You know, I, I, I wanna say the first case you referred specifically to a specific, event, I can't, you know, look at how you parked. I can't park there. The second one, you are such an idiot. Mm-hmm. So let's be careful there too, folks, and you know, if you're going to make a comment that it could be incendiary, Attributed to a specific effect, a a specific moment of specific event and not a personality trait, because then you're in, you're starting to invalidate them as a person, and you're going down that slope of disrespect.

[00:32:03] MATT: And, you know, there's a, there's a. Big gaping chasm between, oh my God, I can't believe you only tipped your barista X amount to, you are such a cheap skate. There's a big difference there. Yeah. You

[00:32:17] FAWN: can't come back from, that's, even if you try, you

[00:32:20] MATT: can try and you might even successfully get it's

[00:32:22] FAWN: to, on the scoreboard.

[00:32:23] FAWN: It's on the scoreboard

[00:32:24] MATT: forever. But you're invalidating someone, uh, as a person there, you're,

[00:32:29] FAWN: you're assassinating their character.

[00:32:32] MATT: So, and if that's where you want to go, that's where you want to go.

[00:32:36] FAWN: And unfortunately, we know people and that that's how they talk all the time. So establishing certain rules from the beginning and saying, you can not talk to me like that.

[00:32:49] FAWN: Right? Don't talk to me like that.

[00:32:50] FAWN: Definitely true. So, um, for me, that's it. Remember, love is winning. Love is winning. Love is winning. Love is winning. Okay,

[00:33:02] MATT: with a healthy dose of compassion and respect,

[00:33:05] FAWN: well just remember without compassion, the love cannot survive. All right, love you guys. Stay well, stay calm.

[00:33:17] FAWN: There's a lot of craziness out there right now. But you know what? It's always been there, but I think we're at a very special time in history and we're lucky to be here and we can create a beautiful world right now. This is the moment, this is the pivotal moment throughout all universes where we are right now with all this stuff that's happening.

[00:33:45] FAWN: This is the time where we can totally create a beautiful, loving world. A friendly world. Yeah. Okay. Love you guys. Talk to you soon. Be well.