"Like Hearted vs Like Minded: The Key to Meaningful Friendships"

Like-Hearted vs Like-Minded
FAWN: [00:00:00] Welcome back everybody. Hello. I was going through my art books today, this morning, and I think I was just looking for inspiration because although there's a lot of projects I'm working on, I'm feeling like I need counsel. And for me, counsel are the cookbooks, the books around my desk. Going into meditation, 
so I picked up one of the books. What were you gonna say? 
MATT: Oh, I remember reading a fable where the poet Rumi, they were debating if he should be buried properly or he should be flung out because he wrote such salacious poems, his love poems. Some of them are quite bawdy. 
They settled the matter in this story. They settled the matter by opening a book of all of his poems and finding one verse and that was gonna be the verse that determined his fate and the verse said words to the effect of To heaven did he start? So they buried him properly. But anyways, that's beside the point 
FAWN: I don't understand what you just said.
They 
MATT: went through his all of his poems Nevermind. 
FAWN: No, [00:01:00] tell me. 
MATT: They went, they opened a book of his poems, and they pointed to one line. And based upon that line, they decided, because the line wrote, for heaven did he start, they decided to bury him properly. Okay. Which is pretty messed up, but again, that's a case of somebody going through a book.
FAWN: Sometimes you get a whole bunch of books. I don't know if you guys are like this, but Sometimes, I'll get a whole bunch of books and won't have time to read them until a few years later.
Do you do that? I do that. No. Well, just to have them on the shelf, I feel like through osmosis or something, I get info. Or, I feel comforted by the books that are on my shelf. And no, I do not like digital. I don't like digital books. I want the book, I want the binder looking at me every day
Giving me a message or sometimes I just touch it and I just feel comforted. And then I eventually go and start reading. Anyway, I picked up one of them today and I was [00:02:00] trying to find inspiration because there's been a lot on my mind, but I'm like, Oh, how are we going to, what are we going to discuss on the podcast today, on our episode today with you guys?
And I opened it up and it's saying everything we've been saying the last few episodes about stepping out and really finding your opposite to be friends with. So I'm just gonna read, I hope it's okay that I can read a passage, can I read a passage from a book? 
MATT: I don't know, don't tell them what book it is.
FAWN: No? I don't know. You don't have to. Alright, the book is called Keep Going and it's one of those series of art books. Keep going. Keep Going, 10 Ways to Stay Creative in Good Times and Bad, by Austin, I think it's Cleon, K L E O N. There's a chapter called Like Minded vs. Like Hearted. And there's a quote by Charlie Kaufman that says, The world needs you at the party.
The world needs you at the party, [00:03:00] starting real conversations, saying, I don't know. And being kind
then there's the page after that. . It's like, you know, do you call them in other countries standards? Matt, were you ever given standards? 
MATT: Uh, I don't remember what we called them. Now I would call them standards, but yeah, when you have to write a sentence over and over again. 
FAWN: I can tell you for sure when I was a kid, they called it standards, which is when you were a kid at the same time.
But, oh my gosh, I got So many standards constantly. I had the meanest teachers starting from fourth grade on. They were ridiculous. Like, fourth grade teacher gave me 300 standards saying I will not tattle when a friend of mine right outside of the classroom door was being beaten up by bullies because she was Middle Eastern.
So I ran in trying to find help to make it stop, and she gave me 300 standards saying I will not [00:04:00] tattle. Because I said, hey, they're beating her up. 
MATT: Right. 
FAWN: Thanks, teacher. Another one of those moments where I was like, I, I have to take things into my own hands. Anyway, Matt is telling me to wrap it up.
All right. So let's just 
MATT: take that childhood trauma and box it back up. 
FAWN: Thanks. So, well basically the reason why I brought up the standards is because the next page is a black page with white writing and it looks like standards and it, all it says is I will not argue with strangers on the internet, I will not argue with strangers on the internet over and over and over and over again.
And then the next page goes on and says, I'm just going to read from the book now. "Think for yourself goes the cliche, but the truth is we can't. We need other people to help us think. To think independently of human beings is impossible writes Alan Jacobs in his book, How to Think." Thinking is necessarily thoroughly and wonderfully Social. Everything you think is a response to what [00:05:00] someone else has thought and said. The trouble is that we're increasingly becoming a culture that is clustering into. like minded communities and networks. Offline, this plays out in where people live, whether by choice or necessity.
Online, it plays out in what websites we visit, who we choose to follow, and how the algorithms of online networks are fine tuned to show us what they think we want to see."
hello, this is what we've been saying. And like I said, I have not read this book before. Okay.
"Interacting with people who don't share our perspective forces us to rethink our strengthen our ideas, or trade our ideas for better ones.
When you're only interacting with like minded people all the time, there's less and less opportunity to be changed. Everybody knows that feeling you get when you're hanging out with people who love the same art, listen to the same music, and watch the [00:06:00] same movies. It's comforting at first, but it can also become incredibly boring and ultimately stifling."
So, let's see, should I read some more or should I just give you the gist? No, I'm going to read one more paragraph because here's the serendipity of it all because our last episode was with Chaz Ebert and I mean the synchronicity of it, Matt. Listen to this next paragraph. "Jacob recommends that if you really want to explore ideas, you should consider hanging out with people who aren't so much like minded as like hearted.
These temperamentally disposed to openness. and have habits of listening. People who are generous, kind, caring, and thoughtful. People who, when you say something, think about it rather than just simply react. People you feel good around." So it just goes on to talk about, look for like hearted people. What do you "think?
[00:07:00] Boom! 
MATT: Uh oh, I made somebody jump, that was funny. Um, oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Yes. Yes. Oh my goodness, yes. And. And it's what? And. Like, what was it, like hearted people? Like hearted people, absolutely. People who are open. This slots right into Matt's theory of you want to always go to social places like a coffee shop or whatever early in the morning because it's the nice people who are out early in the Morning..
But they're random. Or randos, I suppose, as the kids might say. They're just random people and so you can, You express and discuss and go through and I've been at that gathering where somebody's like, Oh, yes. And have you seen the new Drizzler? And it's like everybody there has, and they're all like, Oh yes, it's quite fascinating and interesting.
Which takes me back to a really funny story. I still laugh at myself about it, but in [00:08:00] college, the college I went to UC Santa Cruz, Kresge college in particular, we had to read this book called "Amusing Ourselves to Death." And it was a book about how TV is rotting our brains. Shock of shocks. Right. But anyway, so I was having a conversation with somebody.
With two people, one of them went to my college and the other one didn't, and I don't know what it was, we're freshmen, we're trying to be smart, I don't know. But I mentioned the book, because, you know, I'd read the book, and I was like, yeah, I'm willing to amuse myself to death, they were saying this. And one of the people I was with who was from the same college was like, Oh, yes, I've read that book.
Oh my God. Pompous. And it's like, it's cause we were forced to, but they were like, Oh yes, I've read that book. Like it's a book everybody should know. And maybe I was being pompous, but it felt like they just really piled it on. I hate those kinds of parties. I mean, it's, it's cool if you're like, I don't know, if you have another activity which [00:09:00] is much more, allows for variation of opinion, like if you're at a beer tasting or something, or you're shooting pool or something, then those, that works, but if it's, it's kind of one of these like conversational, like, let's just hang out kind of spaces, yeah, it can get, it can get really boring.
FAWN: I have come at it from a different angle. Lately I've been noticing that I've been meeting with, who I think are people that are like hearted, that they are like hearted, but um, but like, let's say, I don't know if I could use a different, example, but like, I feel like, you feel like they're light hearted.
You're totally getting along. You have the same kind of, heart, but then you find out, Oh, they're this other religion opposite from you. And if they find out what religion you are or are not, then everything changes. Right? And now I'm at a point where I'm like, well, I don't I'm trying to, keep things on the down low about [00:10:00] certain aspects about my personality now.
But, because I've had so much conflict the past few years that I'm like, Well, shoot, maybe I should cover it up. You know what I'm saying? Well, people 
MATT: make a lot of assumptions, yeah. 
FAWN: I just feel like when there is a chance of finding your lightheartedness, Or like, like heartedness is what I should say, that, it will be ruined by, what is it, Matt?
It would be ruined by, what do you call something like politics or religion or where you grew up or your nationality or something where it's so in the mainstream to be on the outs, like if they find out I'm Middle Eastern and this and that, then all of a sudden We're not so, the, the like heartedness goes away and it's, it's overtaken by something else.
MATT: It's called prejudice. And, no, no, no, it's, it's, it's not in the, [00:11:00] like, completely and utterly, like, racist. Duh duh duh duh, but it is prejudice. As soon as they find out we're vegan, they make all kinds of assumptions, like there's my, there's my, uh, sandbox over there and I'm gonna be standing on it preaching at them.
You know, they make the assumption as far as, you know, if they find out that, uh, they find out I was in the hospital, then they automatically assume I must be feeble 
FAWN: now. Right. 
MATT: Or they find out how old we are, right? Ageism, yes. It's all prejudice. Or like, 
FAWN: or like even this podcast, I feel like people think, I look a certain way.
I know for certain on the phone, especially with my name now, right, I have such a caucasian name that when I show up they're like, no, where's, where's the phone, blah, blah, blah. Hence prejudice. Yeah. It's um, I don't want to deal with that anymore, so. I've been hiding it. Right. So is it that they're not [00:12:00] like hearted people then?
No, 
MATT: no, no, no, they can be like hearted people. It's, it's a question of how do you get to the point where you're just people talking and you're not this kind of conglomeration of affiliations. 
FAWN: And that's another reason why I don't like to have video, video, I can't talk today, video with our podcast because one, I think it's such a spiritual beautiful thing to just have a voice You And not have anything other than that, no other external thing vying for your attention.
It's just a voice. You know, it's something very calming about just hearing a voice. And you don't, you don't have any other senses, yes. That are clamoring for attention. That's another reason why I, I like our podcast the way it is, is I could look like anything, you know? I could, I could be tall, I could be blonde, blue eyed, you know what I'm saying?
MATT: Right, we could be running your voice [00:13:00] through a filter. 
FAWN: And I'm, we're not. We're not. But we could be. There's something so transcendent about how we're doing it. And I feel like if I were to be on video, I don't know, part of me is like, uh. 
MATT: And by the same token, if I'm.
If I'm hanging out at the library because one of my kids has a thing they want to do there, right? People look at me and they get to figure out, if they want, who I am, what I am. I've had one or three conversations that have been interesting and far roaming from people, with people there. And sometimes I just ignore everybody.
It just depends on where my headspace is at, too. But it's kind of fun. It's almost like a little present, right? It's fun. If you're willing to explore, you can find out some really interesting things. 
FAWN: Which is what I was gonna just ask, is how do you, how, I'm like, I don't even know anymore. How do [00:14:00] you find like hearted people?
Because there is so much now that's in the way. In the form of politics and religion and geography and all of that. And also it could be because I'm very tired right now. So I'm like, ah, it all looks 
MATT: bad. Well, honestly, so somebody looks at me. Yes. Okay. He's Caucasian. Yes. He has long hair and yes, when I'm out in the world, I am always wearing an NFL football team cap, but that's about it.
I don't go around with a ton of logos, labels, and I'll do things that stand in opposition to where people stick their prejudices. As far as long hair goes, as far as football watcher, as far as, you know, and I'll also engage people in conversations. And, and honestly, sometimes it's just like, you throw out a, you throw something out, you see if it comes back, and that's it.[00:15:00] 
And a majority of the time it doesn't, but making the effort is how you find like hearted people, I think. 
FAWN: Right. And how do you decipher between like, Like minded and like hearted. 
MATT: Well, the thing is, is I can connect with anyone, so Like minded is a little tricky and sticky because Like minded is superficial, isn't 
FAWN: it?
MATT: Fundamentally, we're all humans, we all need to eat, we all need There's a million things that are similar. That we can find, if we look. It's just people draw their definition, they draw their personality, they draw their essence from these political stances or these boxes that they put themselves in to like be upset, almost to be upset about.
FAWN: So how do you tell the difference? 
MATT: I can connect with anyone and if 
FAWN: But how does that explain to me how you tell the difference? Good for you, Matt. You can connect with anyone. [00:16:00] I don't know what you're saying though. I know. Am I not listening? 
MATT: Um, you you have to break through the barrier and if you can't break through the barrier, then you're done But I've generally been able, like whatever they're holding on to whatever's their kind of core key thing so like I can remember running into somebody who just had to tell me how like, people who have to tell you the one thing they have to tell you, not people who are willing to engage in a back and forth and it can go skewing off into new directions, it can stay centered. 
It's like I ran into a guy who just had to tell me all about our prison system. And that was like, oh my god, he had to tell me. Got out of that conversation as fast as possible because it wasn't a conversation, it was, it felt like he was preaching or he was lecturing. 
FAWN: I also feel, so that's definitely like minded, he was looking for [00:17:00] someone like minded.
He was looking 
MATT: for something, yes. 
FAWN: But I feel like the like hearted, wow I have trouble saying it even, like hearted. I feel You know, again, because I feel tired, and I also feel tired, not only because there's a lot I'm taking care of, but also, I've been disappointed a lot the last few years with people, so, like minded, I feel like people lie.
They'll do anything because they do recognize that they need friends, that they are lonely, that they, they lie. They live a lie to make it seem like they're like minded. That's what I'm finding. I don't think your crew works the same way. Yeah. Because you guys, like guys, like your friends, your guys, you don't really go into deep conversations immediately, whereas like, I think the people I hang out [00:18:00] with, we go deep into a conversation, but I think that that is forced and, and um, it's a lie.
They are not really like minded. They'll put up a facade for as long as they can and eventually they can't keep that facade up anymore And then it leads to this Disagreement right or resentment that's been building up the whole time right and then you find out wow gee well We weren't like minded after all so that's that's the confusion on my part And I think that's one of the other troubles of The art of friendship and, why we have a loneliness epidemic is because It's it's look at it.
How complicated it is. It is more than hey, you need to go out there make some friends and hang out with people This is not just meeting the people this is keeping our relationships And then when you're keeping the relationship, you're finding out all these lies or [00:19:00] these deceptions.
Right. These little hurts. Right? Mm hmm. And you're like, well, I don't want to do it anymore. It's better to just be by myself. But like, but like the book said,
 
FAWN: we need each other. It's true. And that's what we say. We need each other. We just have to get through all this jumble
well, 
MATT: we have to It's almost like what we have to do, like So nobody in the United States, I swear to God, listens to my music. Oh my God. Prague, Power, Euro. No. None. So it's almost like I know as a conversation point Talking about music's a non starter. And as soon as I reach that point, all of a sudden it's like, just be, just be you, just be genuine and see where a conversation goes.
And I've had the opportunity inside of the gas station crew, I've mentioned bands. And I've gotten some of [00:20:00] the guys to listen to some of the bands, which has shown me the algorithm, but that's a whole other story because it'll pop up on his feed. But. It's like we had to get through, them, it's almost like you vet each other. Is this a reasonable person, is this a fun person, is this a funny person, is this a person who can laugh at themselves, is a lot of the criteria I think I have. 
FAWN: So it seems like in order to find out if you're like, um, uh, see I can't say it, I can't say it, like hearted, I think, okay, so what I'm gathering is what I'm thinking about is that.
The number one rule is, are they open to whatever shenanigans you're 
MATT: about? Whatever shenanigans, yes. You know, are 
FAWN: they open? I think, I think it's the openness. It doesn't mean that you have to like the same things or you have to pursue something the same way, I think it's about just, like it said, actually, in the book, be open and be a [00:21:00] listening person.
MATT: Yes. And be genuine. And 
FAWN: non, and this is what I've always said. Not judging. Like pretending, like what I always say. Pretend you're watching a movie when you see someone. Every, every person is a movie. Right. But not the way you watch movies, Matt. 
MATT: Don't go in there! 
FAWN: No, Matt will watch something and figure it out in the first few minutes.
Like, he'll look for plot holes, he'll look for details and clues and everything about how it's going to all unfold. I just sit there and I just go with the ride. I'm like, I don't want to know who the bad guy is. I don't, let me just be taken on this ride the movie creator made, I like to just watch people.
But that also gets me in trouble because I'm very open and I'm just like, hey, I'm just going to watch you. Without any judgment, but I don't necessarily have the same treatment by others. Right. I just get a [00:22:00] lot of judgment. 
MATT: Right. Or a lie. And that's just it. Symmetry is important. There needs to be and we've talked about this before, no alphas, no alpha versus beta.
No, if someone is sharing then the, the other person, it feels safe to reciprocate. As opposed 
FAWN: to you're sharing and they're like, Oh, look at that, I'm above you. 
MATT: Yeah, exactly. 
FAWN: Okay, that's all I have to say. I mean, I'm gonna think about it some more. What do you think? 
MATT: Fair enough. 
FAWN: Cool. Should we stop in here for today?
A little short one? I think so. A little short nugget to chew on.
Like. Hearted. Versus like minded. 
FAWN: I keep wanting to say light hearted also, which is probably what I need. I need to be more light hearted right now. Maybe. Okay. La la la. Alright everybody, thanks so much. Have a beautiful everyday.
Be well. If you need us, reach out. Bye. [00:23:00] I mean, not bye, but you know what I'm saying. 
Ha ha ha.