Mama vs MOMA - The Feeling of ARTRAGE and How Our Presence Creates Ripples in the World

Mama vs MoMA
[00:00:00] FAWN: Are you jealous? 
[00:00:02] MATT: Oh de No, no, no, we're not doing this today, are we? 
I 
[00:00:04] FAWN: mean... Oh lord. I cannot believe she said that to me. But then I can because they're now such old, ornery teens. Oh dear. I never thought I never thought I would say that about my kids. Are you jealous? 
[00:00:21] MATT: You said Wait, no, that was said to 
[00:00:23] FAWN: you!
[00:00:24] FAWN: I'm just repeating I'm just reliving those words over and over in my head. Anyway, the shower, the shower, you know how the, there, okay, you all know the bathroom is my conference room, that's where I get my ideas, that's where I take me and the Fonz from Happy Days. Happy Days. Happy Days. So I get my inspiration, I get thoughts, insights come to me.
[00:00:56] FAWN: It's one of the only places on the planet, the bathroom, is, for me, where things come together. Like, I understand things. If I can't be at the ocean, if I'm not in meditation, fully, immersed in a sanctuary, the bathroom is it for me. The shower is where I go to completely wash everything away. It's where I experience my form of Tourette's.
[00:01:25] FAWN: Everything that I wanted to say that I was so shocked, I was in such a state of shock that I couldn't say, comes out in the shower. And so here we are in a huge hotel, and I'm just going for it, right? I just, like, it was all coming out in the shower, and I was thinking. 
[00:01:47] MATT: Words wise, not it's all coming out, 
[00:01:50] FAWN: but.
[00:01:51] FAWN: Words, emotions. And I was thinking while it was happening, the hallway must hear me. Like, I'm sure they heard me in the hallways. Like, what is happening in that room? Anyway guys, Where do I even begin? So this is what happened. We went to New York.
[00:02:12] FAWN: New
[00:02:12] MATT: York City.
[00:02:13] FAWN: New Why do you say it like that? I can't help pace Nevermind.
[00:02:16] FAWN: You say it like it's some, um, Tabasco commercial. There was a 
[00:02:21] MATT: commercial once upon a time, a very long time ago, where it's like, Your sauce is made in New York City. 
[00:02:27] FAWN: I mean, we we were both Well, I was more of a city person than you. You kind of grew up in the suburbs. Suburbs. But I was always a city girl.
[00:02:39] FAWN: Until we moved away. Until we moved away from Santa Monica. And then, I swear, ever since then, every time we go to a city, I'm completely out of sorts. It's bizarre. Remember when we used to drive? Well, we would go to Seattle from where we lived. Right. We would get off the ferry.
[00:03:02] FAWN: You would drive on the ferry with your car. 
[00:03:04] MATT: It was all very nice, too. Very quiet, very 
[00:03:06] FAWN: peaceful. Yeah, it was like, yeah. And then the rocking, the slight rocking back and forth, the sound, the water, the sound being, the big body of water is called the sound near Seattle. But, every time we got off with a car, off of the ferry.
[00:03:25] FAWN: It was like water. People were like water or sheep. They like completely, all of a sudden, surrounded the car. And I was terrified. I was like, oh, why is everyone so close to us? I was afraid to hit somebody. You know, like the, the amount of space suddenly shifted. The kind of space that you're used to being around other human beings, you know, you have your space And when you go to a certain culture Ie Seattle in this case or New York all of a sudden You're just surrounded and so close and it's beautiful at the same time, but a little bit disconcerting Because it's, it happens so fast.
[00:04:11] FAWN: Anyway, and it, and while we were walking in New York, I was thinking, cause how I'm the shortest person, so when people are, when I'm walking with people, like a normal walk for me has to be a jog. I'm jogging along with you guys. And now our kids are way taller than I am.
[00:04:29] FAWN: And so everywhere we went, it was like I was jogging. And I'm like, must we walk so fast? What is happening? I thought this was supposed to be a vacation, right? Can we just walk and look at things? No. Everything was so fast. Well, New York is fast. Well, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm trying to get to.
[00:04:51] FAWN: It's kind of like, it reminds me of how birds fly together. And then if you look at them, all of a sudden they all fly in one direction. And in unison, they completely shift and go in this other direction, together. It's like they work as one mind.
[00:05:06] FAWN: They work in unison, it's in harmony. And as much as we say, you know, it's so chaotic, being in a city, and it's actually well orchestrated, which leads me to MoMA. 
[00:05:20] MATT: Dun, dun, dun. 
[00:05:24] FAWN: Well orchestrated perhaps, but I gotta tell you,
[00:05:31] FAWN: This episode is not going to be filled with love, you guys. Because I, I, I just have to vent. I have to vent. Um, We were, we went to MoMA, what, three times? During our stay. Three or four times? Three times at least. Three times. We went definitely three times. 
[00:05:47] MATT: We were 
[00:05:47] MATT: super close to it. 
[00:05:48] FAWN: Everything about it felt hateful.
[00:05:51] FAWN: Everything about it was unwelcoming. Everything about it was cold, as in, um, emotion wise. Inhospitable. Except it 
[00:06:01] MATT: started neutral ish. 
[00:06:03] FAWN: No it didn't. You don't? For you! Okay, so here's the difference between us. 
[00:06:08] MATT: Oh dear. 
[00:06:08] FAWN: Matt walks through a place and he's like, it's all love and light. 
[00:06:12] MATT: It's not all love and light, but still.
[00:06:14] FAWN: I walk through a place and I'm constantly stopped, and wanting to get frisked, or wanting my bags checked, or, excuse me, you're not allowed here. Meanwhile you've gone your merry way, we're together. But I'm always checked, and stopped, and told to go away. So, anyway. So, and that's how it started, if you recall.
[00:06:38] FAWN: Remember, they had this maze for you to get into the MoMA. Right. Right. There was one entrance for the privileged, I guess members, and then there was a completely different side for people who had to go get a ticket. This is when you're outside, on the streets, trying to get into the building.
[00:06:55] FAWN: Remember that maze? And, it, you had to walk a certain speed. Like, these women from another country, obviously they got separated and they were trying to communicate to each other, like, Hey, I'm going in. Hey, do you have the money? Or, like, they, it was something about a purse. 
[00:07:11] FAWN: And of course they were speaking Spanish, so the guard was like, MOVE! MOVE! YOU CAN'T STAND THERE! And, it's not like they were loitering. Anyway, so that's the first thing I noticed, right? And so, whatever, it was like, MOVE! MOVE! MOVE! MUSH! I swear, they didn't say mush, but it was like, it was just ugly, like, MOVE!
[00:07:34] FAWN: Okay. So, so many things happened, and now I have enough time to like, be a little bit more calm about it, because I was, I was so upset. And I didn't realize that it was building. I didn't realize I was feeling it, because I'm so familiar with this. I am now so familiar with it, that, it's like, I, It's hard for me to say, whoa, it's happening again, and I, and I acknowledge it right away.
[00:08:02] FAWN: Mm hmm. It, it's just this feeling like, like I said, I remember it in the shower, when we're away from the situation, and then I get mad, I'm in the shower, and then I have Tourette's. All the words that I wish I could have said come out loud, in the shower. Yes. Yes. So. How do I, how do I even begin? Okay, once I started to notice, once like a few things happened, Um, we went into the bookstore, because it was like, One safe space we could definitely like, just stand for one second, For, for goodness sake, like, have the ability to just stand and look at something, Without some authority saying, move.
[00:08:49] FAWN: So we're standing there, in the corner. And I'm like, I turn to the kids, I'm like, kids, I just remembered something about myself that you have never experienced, so I feel like I have to tell you now what is happening.
[00:09:04] FAWN: When I'm at, when I'm at a museum, not all museums and not all galleries, but most things in the art world, I experience rage. So if you feel anything from me, this is what's happening. It's not you. This is what happens to me when I'm in this environment. And that's when our oldest goes jealous, as in like, are you jealous because your work is not up here?
[00:09:31] FAWN: Now, mind you, I'm the kind of person that thinks about everything and everything is my fault in my head. So I always check myself. Am I feeling this way because of my own responsibility? Like, is it me? So yeah, am I jealous? Like all these things I go through in my own head. So I've checked myself already and I do it every single time.
[00:09:52] FAWN: It's not jealousy. It is pure It's just rage, and I called it art rage. Like, it's outrage, but it has to do with art. So I, and that's what I started to tell the kids, and we kind of started laughing. And as we were saying this, there was another person who was obviously listening to our conversation.
[00:10:12] FAWN: Because people 
[00:10:13] MATT: can't help 
[00:10:13] FAWN: themselves. Ugh. And so he had that same kind of art attitude, and I look right at him, because I know as soon as I started explaining art rage... And then we were laughing. I knew he was going to take that idea, right? So I started talking out loud and I said, That's my idea. Another one, like, that gets stolen.
[00:10:35] FAWN: Right. You know, art rage. Ugh. So, I experienced art rage and I explained to them what, and it turned into an hour long conversation. We were talking about it in the museum and then we went outside. We're still walking in the streets. And by the time I'm done,
[00:10:53] FAWN: I felt redeemed, because both kids, even though they're ornery teenagers, they were like, Mom, I'm so sorry, because I explained to them things that have happened, and then they started to witness it on their own, like, why am I the only one that gets stopped? We're obviously together. They also have bags. Why am I the only one that gets shooed away?
[00:11:20] FAWN: Why am I the only one that gets so rudely spoken to? You know, they saw it for themselves before I told them the outrage situation. But then, once I explained it, then they understood. And so... Matt, how do I even begin the story? Wow, because i'm starting to forget right we're 
[00:11:43] MATT: stepping right into the middle of it 
[00:11:46] FAWN: What do you mean well 
[00:11:49] MATT: There's a whole adventure that happens before we even get to MoMA.
[00:11:52] MATT: There's, you know, getting into New York City. We took the train in, blah, blah, blah. You 
[00:11:57] FAWN: know what? All of it was love. All of it was love. 
[00:12:01] MATT: We had a great time. 
[00:12:02] FAWN: Everywhere we went was pure love. Even though the train, there was like a complication. Always with Amtrak, we have some funny story when we get on Amtrak.
[00:12:14] FAWN: But like. You know, it was hard to get around, the boards weren't working, we met some really cool people, we finally got on the train, the train staff was so adorable, everyone, and we were noticing how there's a certain look on the east coast of the United States. Everyone has their individual look. 
[00:12:35] MATT: Which is unique to us because it seems like everybody in certain places we lived at, there was like the quote unquote look of that 
[00:12:42] FAWN: place.
[00:12:43] FAWN: Guys, we have been like nomads. We have lived in so many places. And we have noticed that each place has its own particular look. Where all the women practically have the same haircut, the same outfit like a uniform. 
[00:13:00] MATT: And then also we've seen And the men, too. An area, areas where guys basically, they all have the same hair, hairstyle, face hairstyle.
[00:13:10] MATT: And look. 
[00:13:12] FAWN: But not, not on the East Coast. The 
[00:13:14] MATT: East Coast has a lot more variety. Which is amazing, because I wouldn't have thought it, but now that we're here, I guess I'm starting to understand 
[00:13:22] FAWN: it. And so beautiful. Like, beautiful. Like, every single person. That's why I love, I mean, the love of watching people really came back to me on that trip.
[00:13:35] FAWN: Because one of my favorite things to do was to sit and watch people. And be so moved by them. And so inspired. And got to a place where I just loved humanity. Like, look at that glorious person. But every person. Every person is like a work of art . That's why I started photographing people at an early age when I was little.
[00:14:01] FAWN: Obsessed. Obsessed by everyone's beauty. So, yeah, a lot happened. A lot happened on the way to Loma. All the things that, even some of the things where you, things happen, you're like, Oh man, that was terrible. Or that stinks. Or like, yeah, I mean, New York, it was hot and humid and not one breath of like, uh, natural air.
[00:14:31] FAWN: I certainly felt that way. It was like being in, um, an oven that had steam. And a whole bunch of spices were in there. Like, the smell. 
[00:14:45] MATT: And yet it seemed like every time we heard anybody talking, it was in a different language. 
[00:14:51] FAWN: Which was amazing. It was so refreshing. So refreshing. But yeah, like, everything was intense.
[00:15:00] FAWN: Sensory overload. 
[00:15:02] MATT: For sure. Yes, very much. And everybody knows where they're going, so you feel bad if you don't know 
[00:15:06] FAWN: where you're going. Even if they don't know where they're going, I feel like it was like just being part of the flock. You know, like everyone's flying in a direction and then all of a sudden everyone flies in this direction.
[00:15:17] FAWN: But it's happening in unison. Everything felt beautiful. Until MoMA. 
[00:15:23] MATT: Until the MoMA. Until the mo, 
[00:15:28] FAWN: I don't wanna get into all the details that I got into with the kids to tell you, like all the things that have happened to me in the art world, going to galleries, in particular, going to museums, but it was, I have a, I have a beef with MoMA.
[00:15:42] FAWN: It, it was, they need to. What the? What? What? Guys, it was so bad. That's why we went three times. I'm like, maybe we just had an off time. Let's try it again. Oh, no. Let's try it again. And then finally, I said, Well, I said some pretty, I start, you guys, I have a foul mouth. Okay, I, I really, on this podcast, I don't curse.
[00:16:08] FAWN: I don't use bad words, but it got so bad that at the hotel room, Alright, our oldest started started recording my voice on her phone. And it was the best because it was such great therapy. We were in our room, I was lying down on the bed, and I had just let it all in. I told them every, we have this thing, if you've been listening to us for a while, you know, it's this thing, I initiated this thing and I called it Let It Out Club.
[00:16:40] FAWN: And I say, Let It Out Club is open, which means you can say anything you want. There's no judgment. You're not going to get in trouble. You're not going to get in trouble with the universe. You're not going to get in trouble with anyone. You are free to discuss whatever you want. Not even discuss, but just to vent, belt it out, whatever.
[00:17:04] FAWN: You can use any foul word you want. In whatever shape you want to do it, go for it. So we, I had a little, uh, let it out club and Al recorded me. And we were laughing so hard towards the end. Because the stuff that was coming out of my mouth. 
[00:17:23] MATT: Right? Not PG. Not even 
[00:17:26] FAWN: PG 13. Not even, it was fantastic. And we all said we should do an episode where I just go for it, saying exactly everything I said. But, I'm too chicken. I can't do it. Right. I can't do it. But, um, suffice it to say, I don't like MoMA. There are so many museums now, and galleries, now that I look back on.
[00:17:50] FAWN: It is such, Is it a, yeah, it is an industry. It is, and I, and I've, again, I'm sorry, but I've talked about this before, it is so full of crap. It is, remember I told you guys when the last time I showed my work in a group environment where all the galleries in the United States get together and some galleries from Europe, from other countries come together and you pay a lot of money.
[00:18:16] FAWN: A lot of money to be critiqued by these people. So you pay a lot of money to go there. And this was happening in Portland, Oregon years ago. This was my last time doing anything like this. I, um, I was in the lobby and because of the way I dress, people didn't think I was one of the artists. Because I always dressed up in suits.
[00:18:40] FAWN: And my portfolio was in a briefcase. I sat in the lobby waiting for this thing to start because I always show up massively early to things because I'm afraid of being late, despite what Matt says, that I'm always late. It's not true. I'm sitting there and these other people come and sit down next to me, you know, these huge couches and there's a coffee table, right?
[00:19:03] FAWN: Totally ignore me. I'm sitting right there. They don't know me. And they started talking. And I'm like, oh, these are the gallery owners. These are the big wigs, the big wigs. And I'm just sitting there, listening. And they start talking, and they start saying, and laughing to themselves. Now I forgot the exact words they used, but it was almost like this.
[00:19:29] FAWN: Can you believe these poor bastards? These idiots. They pay all this money. For us to just shred them. We know it's not going to go anywhere. And they spend all this money. They're such fools. These idiots.
[00:19:45] FAWN: So I heard this, right? They went on and on. Anyway. So I went and I met with other people. Like other gallery owners. And they just shredded me. It was horrible. It was beyond, it was full on character, uh, annihilation. It wasn't about my photography, it was, they didn't even know me! It was so bad, that I ended up going, it was by this time it was 10.
[00:20:18] FAWN: 30 in the morning. I was at the bar with a scotch. I don't drink. I'm surprised you're 
[00:20:23] MATT: even new to Orderscotch. 
[00:20:25] FAWN: Hello, my background. Please, I'm Persian. Parties, hard alcohol. I began drinking when I was like, I don't know, 7, 8 years old? But I don't drink, guys. Like, it's, it's, uh, I can barely have a cup of coffee.
[00:20:43] FAWN: I can't handle caffeine. Let alone, like, straight up alcohol like that. Anyway, I was at the bar. Drinking one drink, but like one sip, like, knocks me out pretty much. And crying. And I had people come up to me, like, this one guy I guess overheard what happened, and he's like, please don't listen to them. They don't know what they're talking about.
[00:21:05] FAWN: Please don't listen to them. I'm so sorry. I didn't know him. But he was another fellow artist, photographer. I didn't think anything of it. Right? So. Anyway, so many things had happened, and they were so rude, so mean, everything, like, again, that I felt at the MoMA, right, it all came coming back. All the experiences I've had, like, this was one of them.
[00:21:29] FAWN: This was the last straw. I left the building, I left the hotel, after I had my drink, and I'm walking the streets just to walk it off, I'm still upset. And I get, I get hounded by another gallery owner. Like, how does she even know me? She's like, hey, hey, hey, can you stop one second, one second, I heard what happened.
[00:21:50] FAWN: I'm like, how did she hear what happened? Right. It's supposed to be, it was a one on one thing. Mm hmm. Um, yeah, you're in a room with a whole bunch of tables and everyone, it's crowded. Like speed dating. It's kind of like speed dating, but like, yeah. So you're just having a one on one conversation while you're showing your work to one gallery owner and then you go to the next table and the next table.
[00:22:13] FAWN: And so, I guess they all started gossiping. I don't know, I guess people... You know this story, Matt. You know it well. Um... Anyway, so she, she's trying to chase me down and she's like, Oh, I heard what happened. And I thought, okay, maybe a nice person is going to say kind of like what that other artist told me, don't listen to them.
[00:22:36] FAWN: Nope. She wasn't saying that. She's like, I think it would be better if you mounted your prints. First of all, I had museum quality prints done by the most, one of the most famous printers. In the photography industry, who loves my work, who basically, uh, what do you call it, Matt? Like, he totally, sponsored me, he printed my entire series of my book.
[00:23:02] FAWN: He did it for free. Because he loved my work. And he worked with famous photographers, he's like, I believe in you, Fawn this is amazing. They were his prints, like a sought after printer, a master printer, and I presented my work with gloves in like, you know, museum, I, I didn't, if I had matted everything.
[00:23:27] FAWN: First of all, the cost of it alone is crazy, but also it makes it very heavy and you can't show your work like that. It makes things bigger and heavier. Anyway, so she was trying to sell me her matting service from her gallery. I'm like, are you kidding me? And, you know, I just walked away. I'm thinking, these people are terrible.
[00:23:49] MATT: Leeches. 
[00:23:49] FAWN: That's when I decided I'm not even going back. I went to my hotel, I was crying, and turned on the TV. The TV's my friend. Guys, I love the TV. Don't judge. And what comes on? But something, one of those natural videos, those nature videos, and it was, you guys, I'm not even joking. It was a, a deer, a fawn, a deer.
[00:24:14] FAWN: A fully grown one, not a fawn, but, you know, I'm fawn. I completely resonate with a deer, it's not just my name. But I'm seeing this deer. And I'm, I'm looking at raw footage someone took, a wife took, of her husband who's a hunter, a deer hunter. He had the rifle, the whole camouflage outfit, and... This guy was trying to kill this deer, and the deer was not having it.
[00:24:40] FAWN: The deer chased this guy up a tree. Meanwhile, totally, like, hitting him. Like, with his, with his, um, the deer. The antlers? Um, yeah. Charging him, and like, boinking him in the sides. Basically, like, punching him, right? With his hooves. Oh, With the hooves. Yes. And also his head, right? And so the guy was totally getting beaten up by this deer.
[00:25:09] FAWN: And I'm standing there still, like, still crying. And I'm watching this, kind of, like, wanting to laugh at the same time. Not that that's funny, but it was just that the deer, and the timing of it, of me seeing this, you know, someone who's always, like, I'm not trying to mess me up, but the deer fighting back, I needed to see the deer fighting back.
[00:25:34] FAWN: Anyway. And, when the deer was done, he was not done. He turned around. Meanwhile, he's very close to the hunter's head because, you know, he's barely hanging on this tree. And, like, right by his head, he defecates, turns around and looks at him, and then turns around and walks away. I'm like, that's right! Don't mess with me!
[00:26:00] FAWN: Oh dear. You know, anyway, so that was it. And so, after that, I met some amazing people, , from that conference, other photographers, and one of them lived, near us in Port Townsend, remember? And I told him what happened. And so, I just, I just said, look, this is exactly what these gallery owners said.
[00:26:21] FAWN: And so, I've just been telling people, look, it's like a business. And it's not for your benefit. They don't even know how to run a proper business. This whole art world, it just seems like such a scam to me. And it's, it's not good business for an artist. You really, they're like middle, middle men. And that's when my career got better.
[00:26:45] FAWN: Because I said nuts to this. I'm a business person. There's a reason why I wore suits every time. I'm gonna treat it like business. I am here not for the sake of my work. But I'm here to help other people. That's what I started photographing for major architects and major, landscape architects.
[00:27:07] FAWN: Business people that needed my services, that needed my artistry to help their artistry. Right. And it totally became clear, whatever we do in life, it is to help one another. I'm not you shine.
[00:27:25] FAWN: To have people see you properly, And no matter what you're doing, if you're a dentist, you're there to help this person feel better. You're a baker, you're here to nourish this person. It's not about your baking. It's about helping one another. It's about human connection. It's about love. It's about supporting one another.
[00:27:45] FAWN: It's about community. So, I was done with the art world. And because now we have kids, and we're in New York City, of course we're gonna go to the MoMA.
[00:27:57] FAWN: I'm glad we did, but I'm also glad that I told the kids, and the kids saw what they saw. They had fun going to the exhibit. Mhmm. Cause they had never been before, and they were totally on their own for the first time.
[00:28:11] FAWN: I 
[00:28:11] MATT: know, that was very uncomfortable.
[00:28:12] FAWN: Like, we just let them go, and we waited for them 
[00:28:15] FAWN: and we let them just like, just be on their own, and explore on their own. It was fantastic. The MoMA is not fantastic. The MoMA is unfriendly. The art world, not just MoMA, but like, it is just... Can you help me out, Matt? I'm doing all the talking. 
[00:28:33] MATT: Well, I have a hard time... A, getting a word in edgewise, but B, you know, I worry I'm about to say the wrong thing too, but I don't think so.
[00:28:43] MATT: But basically, yeah, going into a place where we need to look at your bag, randomly selected. Well, I understand that. People, yeah, but you were ran, I, I walked in with my bag, nobody cared. 
[00:28:56] FAWN: The kids had their bags. Exactly. 
[00:28:58] MATT: We just. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 
[00:28:59] FAWN: Right on in. But I also looked very ethnic. I'm wearing an ethnic dress.
[00:29:04] FAWN: But it's like But that's no excuse! I'm just saying it's racial. Right. 
[00:29:09] MATT: Again, no excuse. And then, you know, it seemed like every Everybody with a Napoleon complex decided to take out their complex on you, 
[00:29:20] FAWN: too. I mean, not everyone was mean. Do you remember? Because I specifically went to the person With the tickets, right?
[00:29:28] FAWN: Who's selling the tickets. I asked, where, where can we go? I've never been here before. it was an hour before closing. The first time we went. So I said, okay, I'm not going to get tickets right now. We're coming back tomorrow. But where can we go right now without tickets? Is it all... off limits, or are there areas if you don't have tickets where you can go?
[00:29:49] FAWN: He said, absolutely. You can go here, here, and here. So we went specifically to those areas where the ticket guy told us to go. Right. And every single one, I was shooed away. Nobody else. Nobody else but me. And in one case, remember, there was this one area. And I could feel, I could feel one of those security people.
[00:30:16] FAWN: It was like a video game. I don't really play video games, but you know how the character is like vibrating like he's ready to like, he's just going back and forth, back and forth, about to pounce? It was like that. And I could, I could feel him before I even saw him. So I knew what was happening, so I made all of my movements very calm, much more calm, and also deliberate.
[00:30:43] FAWN: And even the words I was choosing to say were deliberate. And once we got closer to this place, I was saying to you guys, but I was really talking to the security guard because I knew he wanted to pounce on me, I was telling you guys, oh, I think this is the area where they're showing films. Um, we're not going in.
[00:31:05] FAWN: I just want to see what the room looks like, you guys. So let's just kind of go in the doorway and look at what this room looks like. I know he heard me. I take w Oh! And, and then, the other people, who were working there. There was one, uh, I think a documentary crew that was there? There was! They come right up to me.
[00:31:28] FAWN: And they want to interview me about what I think about the exhibit. And I very clearly told her, Oh, you know, I don't know what's going on. I'm the wrong person to ask. But thank you. I'm, I'm not the person to ask. I don't know. And then right after that is when I said, Okay, let's go look just in the doorway.
[00:31:48] FAWN: Just want to see what this room looks like. We're not going in, you guys. Boom! This guy just like, pounces on me. I don't even remember what he said. Do you remember what he said? But he's like, you're not allowed here. Yeah. It was like, Hey, Hey, Hey. I'm like, calm down, man. I didn't say anything like that, which explains the shower.
[00:32:08] FAWN: Cause I I'm just always surprised. Like seriously, Matt is 6'4 I'm 4'11 And this guy was 
[00:32:17] MATT: like 4'10 
[00:32:20] FAWN: I mean, seriously. And there's a crowd behind us and he was so mean about it. That when I turned around I saw other people shocked like whoa Why did he talk to you like that? And I'm just pushing back tears at this point cuz I'm like why?
[00:32:41] FAWN: So we left, you know, right 
[00:32:42] MATT: and then two minutes 
[00:32:43] FAWN: later it happens again Two minutes later and again you were 
[00:32:49] MATT: stopped. You were looking at a wall of books 
[00:32:53] FAWN: guys It was it was actually two minutes later. It was something else. No, this was the last draw. This was the last draw Okay So the MoMA has two bookstores one across the street and then one is is where the museum is and it's downstairs and you can go downstairs and Buy their crap and so we went brought their crap And you, um, go back upstairs, and there's a, there's a whole wall of books, you know, I love books, and the, the wall of books goes from the ground level all the way to the top.
[00:33:28] FAWN: It's quite beautiful. And once we made it to the top, you're in this kind of hallway, and there was nobody else around Matt, except us, right? Right. I literally stopped, not even three seconds, because I wanted to see what the books on the very top were. So if I wanted to, buy a book from the very top, I was like, how do you, how do you get that to happen, you know?
[00:33:55] FAWN: Right. Literally, I had not been there three seconds. Security man comes up to me. Ma'am? He didn't even say ma'am. What did he say to me? I don't even remember, man. But he started on his tirade of, like, how I'm not allowed there. It's the hallway just getting out of the the gift shop. Like, the the it's right the books are right in front of you.
[00:34:21] FAWN: So, meanwhile, and I just climbed stairs and I had a foot injury on top of it. So it's like After we've been 
[00:34:27] MATT: walking in New York City all 
[00:34:29] FAWN: over the place. So I'm just like You know, not even three seconds, and the guy's like, You can't stand here! You need to move! And I just looked at him. Didn't tell me that.
[00:34:42] FAWN: Um, I thought I said something else, but the kid said, Mom, all you said was, Oh my god! And you just walked out. And I walked out in the midst of him still yelling at me. And I'm on the sidewalk of New York that's very loud and busy. And I could still hear him talking. And I'm leaving, and I'm waiting for you guys to just like, meet me outside.
[00:35:05] FAWN: And the kids come out, they're like, Mom! He's still talking! He is still 
[00:35:14] MATT: yelling at you. Alright, I'm about to put my foot in it, maybe, so be careful. I'm gonna ask a very, ooh, question I'm afraid to. I'm a little afraid I'm, I'm gonna get, I might get snapped at. Do you suppose that it's possible? Okay, so we're looking at the realm of the entire universe for a moment, but they have art rage, too.
[00:35:38] MATT: No, I Oftentimes people like You mean the security guards? Yes, like people will work at places that are close to Or are places that they want to be in so somebody who's an aspiring guitarist may work at a club a you know, um, you know, I become a bartender because I want to be a DJ I Work at a museum because I want to be an artist 
[00:36:08] FAWN: No, these guys were not artists.
[00:36:10] FAWN: I can always spot the artist. I didn't get I always spot the artist which okay We're gonna bring it to a happy place this episode Okay. Oh dear. But we've 
[00:36:19] MATT: already dug ourselves in. 
[00:36:21] FAWN: Okay. I'm going to bring it around quick. I'm sorry. It was just my therapy talking. Thanks for listening, you guys. But do you remember what that guy said on the third day we went back?
[00:36:33] FAWN: Remember there was a security guard I was telling you about in the, um, in the gift shop? Yes. Who was following me? 
[00:36:40] MATT: Hi, how are you? Fine? Good? Oh my gosh. 
[00:36:45] FAWN: So you guys, I'm at, I'm at the gift store. Now I'm by myself, and there's a security guard following me. Don't hold that calendar. I picked up a calendar that I was going to purchase, and it's huge.
[00:36:59] FAWN: It's not like I'm pickpocketing. I'm obviously carrying it like, doot de doot. I'm carrying this big thing I'm gonna buy, and he's following me. So I look at him. I'm like, hi, how are you? He's like fine fine like so mean and then I looked at him. I'm like good
[00:37:25] MATT: Like I said, hi, how are you fine good? 
[00:37:28] FAWN: No, but I didn't think I know I'm good Like I practically spit like good right like, you know when something bad happens to someone that deserves it. You're like good That's how I said good to him to his fine. So anyway Um, I digress, I digress, but like so many things kept happening like that and over it, whatever.
[00:37:52] FAWN: They were not artists, I can always spot. Okay, okay. No, but what I think is it comes from the top. That kind of ugly behavior is what they're supposed to do. And what did you say about the guy that was yelling at me when I was looking at the books? For in the hallway when I left while he was still talking you said honey that guy was like a Milton from office space You guys watch "Office Space" the movie.
[00:38:20] FAWN: There is a character Milton with a stapler. 
[00:38:22] MATT: You got to pay attention to him, too Everybody thinks about oh, yes. He's the guy with the stapler who loses a stapler gets put in a Basement, blah, blah, blah, blah. 
[00:38:30] FAWN: Yeah, no one really thinks of this character as anything. Which is why, one of the reasons this movie is so brilliant.
[00:38:36] FAWN: Because, as a watcher of the movie, you end up doing what everyone else does with this character. Is ignore him. And this is another reason you're probably thinking, what does this have to do with the art of friendship? It does.
[00:38:46] FAWN: And so, this movie, there's a character, Milton, and he always seems like he's mumbling, and it seems like he's mumbling nonsense. But, we had a music producer friend, who actually slowed it down for us, and we would watch the movie, slow down on Milton's parts, and really hear what he was saying.
[00:39:07] FAWN: He said, I will burn the building down. 
[00:39:11] MATT: If you do this, I will burn the building 
[00:39:13] FAWN: down. And all he was saying was, you know, he's just doing his best. He's just... I was 
[00:39:18] MATT: told I could listen to the radio at a reasonable volume from this time to this time. Poor 
[00:39:23] FAWN: guy. He's a sweet person, but he's mistreated over and over and over again.
[00:39:29] FAWN: He's shoved aside. He's ignored. Put in the basement. Discarded. And so you were saying... Honey, I think that could be a Milton true and the way I walked out on him would have Probably hurt his feelings even though he was yelling at me, right, but I think it just comes from the top It comes from the source and the source is the ugly art world Oh, look at me the elitist world of you belong here.
[00:40:00] FAWN: You don't. We're gonna choose. What is acceptable? We're gonna choose what is beautiful. We're gonna choose what is shown to the world We're going to show only what we think is good or is it. They're controlling us. They're controlling our, our, our love, our expressions, our ability to see one another. And that's where my art rage comes from,
[00:40:30] FAWN: is that elitist, BS, ugly? Behavior. Old thinking, old, decrepit, nonsense. I'm really trying hard not to use bad words. 
[00:40:43] MATT: It's, I can tell. 
[00:40:45] FAWN: So, no. They're just doing their job and perhaps they're just being treated, they are treated like nothings also. Like robots. Not human. It's another thing that happens, I've noticed, when You have a country and the non, I'm just gonna say it, but if you're not white, you're mistreated, right, a certain way.
[00:41:10] FAWN: Right. And then why is it that this culture who's also non white is now using the same terminology that the racist people use about this other group who's not white? Does that make sense? Mm hmm. Why is the Asian community... Mistreating the black community. For instance. For instance, 
[00:41:32] MATT: right? Maybe, maybe not so, 
[00:41:34] FAWN: but yes.
[00:41:35] FAWN: Just as a total example, I'm just throwing something out there. But why is that? Why is that when they are also being mistreated? Why is it in a school, a bully picks on this one kid, and then all the other kids Who are also being bullied will also bully the kid that's being bullied right now, right?
[00:41:56] FAWN: Why it's because you just want to fit in 
[00:42:01] MATT: right a camouflage. I just don't want to be seen I just don't want to be noticed. I just want to stay under the radar of this 
[00:42:08] FAWN: negative influence You want to act like the elite to say? Hey, I'm one of you. I'm I'm I'm not I'm not brown I'm not an immigrant. I'm not you know, whatever it is.
[00:42:20] FAWN: That's not acceptable Am I clear, Matt? Am I being clear? Cause, you know, I talk about this all the time. You're being clear to me. I hope I'm being clear to whoever's listening. But, why do they do that? I just feel like it's the same 
[00:42:36] MATT: thing. Well, I just, if I'm in that situation, I don't want to be picked on.
[00:42:41] MATT: So easier to pick on someone else, sadly. 
[00:42:43] FAWN: Meanwhile, I'm the one that says, Whoa! Stop the picking! Y you know? Then I'll pick on the bully then! I'll pick on you! Like, stop it! And this is what I'm trying to do right now with MoMA! MoMA is just one example of this bad behavior. Get outta here! Get outta here!
[00:43:04] FAWN: Anyway, so I'm like, So the kids explained, I explained to them, Art Rage. The art rage of it all. Anyway, so a few days later, we go to Massachusetts, Amherst, Massachusetts, guys, oh my goodness. We walk into a museum. Now listen to this, the opposite of MoMA, the opposite, oh, the most, one of the most beautiful, loving, welcoming.
[00:43:35] FAWN: The most artistic, the most inspiring, beautiful museum, the Eric Carle Museum. And dare 
[00:43:44] MATT: I say it was nicer than MoMA. I like, nicer as in like, more plush, more, more 
[00:43:50] FAWN: fancy. Ugh, it was so much better. So beautiful. Everything from the landscaping, the surrounding neighborhood, The architecture, everything was so thoughtful, everything was so welcoming, they even had free coffee, like, offering us nourishment, everyone who worked there was an artist.
[00:44:18] FAWN: Yes. Everyone was so open. And wanting to share and wanting to have you experience beauty and understanding and there was such a sense of community. I cried the whole time we were there. Not the way I cried in the shower after the MoMA, but while we were there, I was just crying. Just because it felt like when someone is mean to you and then someone's nice to you, you cry.
[00:44:50] FAWN: I cried the whole time we were at Eric Carle, the Eric Carle Museum. It was, I, I, and then the staff started talking to us. At one point, when we thought we were done with the whole museum, You're like, oh look, you guys, we went down this hallway, and there was an office, and 
[00:45:08] MATT: everything. Authorized personnel only, but there was a big picture window, and a research library.
[00:45:13] MATT: Right, it, 
[00:45:13] FAWN: it, even that. And I was like, oh? Even that felt open. There was a massive window, and it was beautiful. So we were literally window shopping, not window shopping, but window watching. So we were like, the four of us were standing there kind of like, tilted heads, like, oh. And right away, someone comes out, and I'm like.
[00:45:33] FAWN: Uh oh. Uh oh. Ruh roh. But he, what he said was, Hi, I have some time and usually it's by appointment but I see you looking. Would you like to come in and see our private books, um, how we research? I was like, and then I cried even harder. Of course. I had to turn around while he was talking, take out my hanky, and like, really, like, it was just, like, I was just a mess, like, sobbing.
[00:46:03] FAWN: And then he even asked, why, are you okay? Like, he asked how I was. Right. And I explained to him why I was crying and then we had like, what, an hour conversation with this man? Something like, yeah. Who is in charge of 
[00:46:18] MATT: That rambled from topic to topic, 
[00:46:20] FAWN: too. Ramble's not the It's not He We had the best conversation.
[00:46:26] MATT: Well, to me, that's a ramble. It's like, you're just going where where you're taken. 
[00:46:30] FAWN: Anyway, what a good host this museum is. Oh, absolutely. And, there's an area Like, you can do art also? Thank you. And there's even a huge, beautiful room where you can just sit there and do art, and they supply all the materials for you.
[00:46:49] FAWN: We walk in there and they could tell at this point like the kids were like, can we go now? Oh my god, you know and you were like the kids are getting turning into pumpkins And I just want to see this room right was the last room and one of and actually everyone who worked there at the museum With who it was in that room whose job was to be in that room to do the art in that room and They introduced themselves to me, they told me about everything there, and then they looked at you guys and they're like, oh, we know you probably have to go, let us give you something.
[00:47:22] FAWN: They gave me a to go bag of art to do at home. They're like, hey, you know, this is where people do and just like, this is what they do, they hang out here and create art. They gave me a to go bag so I could do what you could do in that room. I could take it home with me. Unbelievable. See, 
[00:47:43] MATT: now, I was actually outside in their gardens, which are super nice for exactly what they are.
[00:47:50] MATT: It's an apple orchard. It was an apple orchard, and they still have apple trees, and they had fallen, blah, blah, blah. And I took a look at the art room from the outside in, because it's a big picture window. And then I went in the art room before I went in with you. And there were these two... I think there were retired women doing 
[00:48:06] FAWN: art, right?
[00:48:07] FAWN: Oh, they're not retired. Those are artists. I totally talked to them. Yes. 
[00:48:11] MATT: They said they weren't it. They weren't working, you know, they weren't employees of the museum. No, they were visiting and they were like, hi, would you like to do some art? Now for those of you who don't know and you do know, you know, you've heard enough six foot four.
[00:48:28] MATT: Yes, indeed. You look menacing. But I've also got, you know, hair halfway down my back, and I'm sporting a mustache and goatee. Scruppy. I'm always wearing a baseball cap for a football 
[00:48:41] FAWN: team. You look like a gangster. You look like a motorcycle gangster. I don't necessarily 
[00:48:46] MATT: look like the nicest 
[00:48:47] FAWN: person. Which is why, why don't the security guards go after 
[00:48:51] MATT: you?
[00:48:51] MATT: Well they know better. But anyways. But like, they were just like, Hi, you wanna do smart? Like, I was, I was 8 years old. Right. And the trick is, is half the time I feel like I'm 8 years old cause I'm, you know, this is how I look, yes, but this is not my internal picture of myself. So it's a weird 
[00:49:10] FAWN: world. Right.
[00:49:12] FAWN: And here's the thing, this is bringing it back to the art of friendship. Institutions, businesses, people, animals, we're all animals. You know, like, everything. Everything touches everything around it and creates a ripple effect, creates a whole world. So I really had to fight when we got out of the MoMA to return back to love.
[00:49:39] FAWN: I had to fight for it. I had to work all my muscles to get back to the state of love. Because when we left the MoMA, then all the people that we were seeing before, that had their quirks, was still about love. But when we left the MoMA, it was a fight. Like remember, we left the MoMA, we're like a block, half a block away from the MoMA.
[00:50:02] FAWN: We go to our hotel, and it's very crowded, the lobby's crowded. When you get into an elevator, it's packed with people. We get into an elevator, and this woman comes in with her son who's in his 40s. She's probably in her 60s or 70s, and she's like, Press 4. Uh, we don't touch buttons. And you know, normally I would have thought, that's a cartoon.
[00:50:28] FAWN: That's funny. Right? But I was like, I had to hold it together to not be mean to this woman. Like, who are you? To order us around to touch something for you because you couldn't be bothered to touch like we're dirty So we can get dirty touching a button that you think is dirty and the way she spoke to our kid who
[00:50:54] FAWN: very graciously pushed the button for her like I had to fight myself to be a human being is Just holding it together when I'm about to explode I'm about to just rip her a new one. But do you know what I'm saying? Yes. Look at what this institution does. And it's doing it on some level to everybody. What good are you in society?
[00:51:24] FAWN: You're awful. Whereas, the Eric Carle Museum, let's just look at it like a person as well. When we left... Everything was funny and beautiful and a work of art. When we were driving around, the sense of art and love that we felt in that space continued on and on and on everywhere we went.
[00:51:49] FAWN: Can you explain that? Do you, do you understand what I'm saying? Like, when we were watching the construction workers who were driving? Mhmm. We're like, look at that! It looked like a merry go round, like, they were like, Jackhammering me. It 
[00:52:01] MATT: was like, we, we, we just carried a little pocket of the museum with us.
[00:52:06] FAWN: A huge pocket. The world. We carried that world 
[00:52:09] MATT: with us. And then as soon as, like, if you go looking for Heaven or Hell, you will find it. We were looking for Heaven. So we found 
[00:52:18] FAWN: it. We were part of Heaven. We weren't even looking for it. It was like we embodied that. So I just want to put a call out there for God's sake, please Recognize the MoMAs.
[00:52:33] FAWN: They may be big and flashy and popular, but how are they really creating our society?
[00:52:40] FAWN: And Let's look at the people, the institutions, the things like the Eric Carle Museum as an example. Let's look at that and see, wow, see that's a good example. That's a friend. That is love. That is inspiration. It's funny, because I was kind of trying to explain to him my art rage. The guy at the Eric Carle Museum, one of the one of the bigwigs, actually.
[00:53:11] FAWN: And he said, well, Fawn, are there any museums that you like? I'm like, here? He goes, no, but like, are there, do you feel this art rage with all galleries and museums? And I didn't skip a beat, and I said, He's like, are there some that you like? And I didn't skip a beat. I told him exactly. I'm like, yeah, the Getty.
[00:53:32] FAWN: Like, there are places that offer that, that are huge. You know, for me it was the Getty. Right. And other places, but yeah, there, but there's not that much. Anyway, so that's it for me. Sorry about the rant, guys. That was a long one, too. Um, I hope it's okay, but I just feel like it's really important to share.
[00:53:53] FAWN: Just because something is popular, or even if it's not popular, let's be really mindful about how things are touching us. And then, how it touches us, and then we get dirty, and then we, pass on the germs. That's why the shower is an important place for me. I have to wash it off. Right. Let it out. Let it out, club.
[00:54:15] FAWN: You start a Let It Out club, you say any foul thing you want, you're allowed, you need to, you need to express it from your body, get it outta you, and then you call, let it out. Club has come, stop to a close. Come to a close. So with that, my Let Out Club has come to a close. Thank you so much for listening.
[00:54:35] FAWN: Love you. Look for the beautiful. We'll talk to you in a few days. Thank you. Be well.