Rules for Radicals - Mind the Gap

Rules for Radicals
[00:00:00] FAWN: Welcome back to our friendly world, everybody. 
[00:00:02] MATT: Hello. How is everyone? 
[00:00:04] FAWN: Um, okay. So once again, to emphasize again, the reason for this podcast came years ago when Matt and I got together and decided to do something about what's going on with friendship in our society. But Really years before that, when I was very little, when I was a small child, I started noticing things because I'm an immigrant technically , my family moved here before I was born. They went back and forth. They were trying to figure things out. So I was raised in two cultures completely. Whereas my siblings and, you know, my family, they never quite adjusted.
[00:00:42] I adjusted more to the United States, I think, than they did. But I always paid attention to how people were speaking to one another, how the people from my background were speaking to one another, how my friends at school in the United States, how [00:01:00] they were raised, how they were being spoken to, how they spoke to each other.
[00:01:04] And I was telling a friend of mine, I went on her podcast and I was telling her about how my photography career started was because I would sneak into my mother's closet and Deep in there was this old photo album And if you're if you're familiar with like photo albums from other countries like Iran in particular it has rice paper.
[00:01:28] It has black Paper the cover is made out of this wood and it's thick, and it has these elaborate Persian, like, not just a painting, it's like, you can feel, it's very tactile, like, you can put your hands on it and feel all of the brush strokes and the dots of paint, the peacocks and the flowers, very elaborate Persian painting.
[00:01:54] Anyway, I would look at these and they were pictures of, family from many years ago or [00:02:00] generations ago. And you gotta understand that back then, it was a privilege. It was something to have your photograph taken, to have a portrait made of you, photographic portrait also, you know, like it was a big deal.
[00:02:15] And also you had to sit straight, you had to sit still for a while. Because it wasn't like the photograph could be taken in a fraction of a second. And also because it was so, it was just a big deal, okay? So you had to sit there, and I think that they understood that in this one moment, in this fraction of a moment, everything about you is being presented to the world.
[00:02:42] everything about you. So I think they gathered all their emotions, everything that they were about and looked right into the camera. And I fell in love with that. And not only did I fall in love with the style of portraiture because there was so much reverence in it that I [00:03:00] noticed even as a little kid, but also it was a way for me to connect to these people that I didn't know that somehow my parents came from.
[00:03:09] Trying to understand, why are these people, meaning my parents, behaving this way? Oh 
[00:03:16] MATT: dear. No, 
[00:03:17] FAWN: because from a very early age, they were very, there was a lot of turmoil. 
[00:03:22] MATT: Well, yeah. And 
[00:03:23] FAWN: I, and I would sit there, I remember, I have memories of being in my diapers. Not knowing how to walk, scanning the room and understanding what people were saying.
[00:03:33] The consequences of what they were saying. And feeling all kinds of emotions. One of them besides fear, was, compassion and pity. Like, whoa. And I told myself, In a way like I the feeling I could describe was don't act like that. Like what they're doing is wrong. Don't act like that 
[00:03:55] MATT: Ouch What?
[00:03:57] Well, I mean, that's how they felt. That's how they [00:04:00] were 
[00:04:01] FAWN: If they're being mean and using bad language and And it's not they were saying things that were not nice 
[00:04:11] MATT: About who 
[00:04:12] FAWN: about each other? 
[00:04:14] MATT: Oh, okay. Well, yeah, 
[00:04:15] FAWN: and sometimes it was targeted at me You You know, 
[00:04:19] MATT: okay, so I 
[00:04:20] FAWN: knew okay, but I could also see the pain and I could see how This person did this to this person And so I could say a did some messed up stuff to be and then B Goes and does the same messed up stuff to someone else and I could see the pattern I could see wow This happened to them now
[00:04:40] they're gonna do it to someone else and I told myself and I remember looking down I was in diapers I always got lots of messages, by the way, like when I was that age, like some really freaky metaphysical messages. But one of them was, I'm not going to do that. It's that's, it's going to stop here with [00:05:00] me.
[00:05:00] I'm not going to do that. Anyway. So I would turn to these photos. And I would understand maybe it was, uh, what's the word for it when you want someone to tell you something. So it could be that, or it could be I actually was communicating with these ancestors, but I could feel them parenting me a little bit.
[00:05:23] Like I could feel them with their pain in their eyes or their compassion in their eyes or whatever it was, I could feel an embrace. Like, I'm sorry that these kids are behaving this way, meaning their kids or their grandkids. Does this make any sense to you? 
[00:05:42] MATT: In a way. What do you mean, in 
[00:05:43] FAWN: a way? You don't understand what I'm trying to say?
[00:05:45] No, I 
[00:05:45] MATT: understand what you're trying to say, I'm just questioning where we're going. 
[00:05:49] FAWN: Well, I was going to say that I noticed from an early age what our society is going through. I noticed. Yes, [00:06:00] there are changes in life and it's really hard to adapt. It's really hard to roll with the punches. It's really hard to roll with the change that's happening.
[00:06:11] It is hard when you don't feel accepted. It is hard when you have group A, trying to turn you against group B. I just noticed it in all kinds of ways and I'm trying to get back to why. Again, restating the reason why we have this podcast, why we're concentrating on the friendship movement, on the art of friendship.
[00:06:33] It is not just friendship. It is our relationships to everything, to ourselves, everything. And we decided to work on friendship because, you know, go and listen to the first few episodes of our podcast over four years ago, but I don't want to keep repeating myself. But one of the things that I always said Matt was one of the things in the beginning that I was always saying was [00:07:00] I think i'm going to sound like a conspiracy theorist regarding friendship because I felt like just looking at Things since I was a kid.
[00:07:10] I felt like there was this force that prevented people from having good relationships with one another. I felt like there were things at play that's not quite visible that keeps us from being together. And it shows up in different ways. It shows up as the four letter word busy. It shows up as, always feeling like you're fighting a fire.
[00:07:36] or you're running away, it shows up as fight or flight. You're always in survival mode. You don't have any energy or time to really have proper relationships, not only with yourself, enjoying your own life, but then having that energy, having the capacity to offer something to someone else or be there for someone else or create period, create art, create [00:08:00] a life, create a beautiful, Home, you know, there's no time and I thought it was there was something Insidious about it.
[00:08:08] And at the risk of sounding like this conspiracy theorist that's always been at the back of my head So so I'm thinking this and I've been thinking about it a lot more lately because of all of the things that have been going on that are going on right now. I think someone said more than ever in history There's been more elections happening this year around the world than ever before. Governments are changing at a rapid scale A lot more elections are happening, a lot more changes.
[00:08:40] But isn't 
[00:08:41] MATT: that a good thing? More elections? Yeah, 
[00:08:42] FAWN: yes, but it just feels like it's not just a normal election for many people. There's a lot of, fighting, a lot of distrust, a lot of people feeling scared, a lot of fear, uncertainty, and doubt, right? Right. That is true. [00:09:00] And so as we're recording this, We're very, very close to our election, and I just, I know in my heart, no matter which way it goes, that there's going to be a lot of turmoil.
[00:09:12] Right. Probably. As I was thinking about this, a book was, brought to my attention last week. Now this book is highly controversial. But it was really interesting what it said and what was in this book and this is why I'm bringing up what I just brought up.
[00:09:27] What was in this book is the insidiousness that I have been feeling all of my life that has been keeping us from having friendships, that's been keeping us from having community. The way this guy puts things together. The book is called Rules for Radicals, and it's written by, 
[00:09:44] saul Alinsky in 1971. Again, Rules for Radicals. I'm just gonna give you the basic notes on how you can bring down a system. And let me know, what do you think? Don't you think this is a little bit familiar? No [00:10:00] matter what side of politics you're on, See if this is familiar to you. So, there are tactics.
[00:10:07] And I'll point them out. This guy pointed them out. There's like 13 ways. There are 13 things to do to break a system. To break it apart, make it stop working. Period. And once again, if you look, no matter what side of politics you're on, both sides have been doing this check this out And I think as as long as we become aware of it Then we can see each other in a better light.
[00:10:32] Don't you think matt? Once you see what's going on, 
[00:10:35] MATT: you know, I was creeped out the entire time I was reading this book 
[00:10:39] FAWN: Well, i've been creeped out my whole life. So okay join the club. All right So here's the 13 i'm just going to read the 13 and I will also describe a little bit. Okay number one Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have.
[00:10:55] MATT: Perception dictates reality. 
[00:10:57] FAWN: Right. The perception of power can be just [00:11:00] as important as actual power. Make opponents believe that you are stronger and more capable than you might really be. Does that sound familiar? 
[00:11:11] MATT: I 
[00:11:11] FAWN: mean, it happens at work, doesn't it? 
[00:11:14] MATT: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And also just the whole concept of you're throwing away your vote or.
[00:11:23] You know, there's no point in voting or in all the rest of it if you want to, you know, start focusing in on recent political events. 
[00:11:31] FAWN: This group doesn't have enough power, you know, let me just, I mean, I, I'm always trying to be general cause I don't want to piss anyone off and I don't want to get in trouble, but I'll just say like women, okay, we've lost so much in the United States.
[00:11:46] Women's rights have been totally stripped. 
[00:11:48] MATT: And you're just describing that women today have fewer options, fewer choices than they had four years ago. 
[00:11:58] FAWN: Right. And we're [00:12:00] back to where we were in the 1800s. And so, yeah, that is true, but I also feel even more disempowered having that message constantly be thrown at me.
[00:12:11] It doesn't make me feel good. I can go about my day and feel powerful. and control my life, but then if I'm constantly hearing this message, even though I'm doing whatever I can to bring forth equality, that constant message, though, telling me that I'm disempowered. It's not good.
[00:12:32] What do you think? 
[00:12:33] MATT: You're absolutely right. In addition, the fact that as a society we are more broken down into individuals than we ever have been before. We don't gather in groups. Can you imagine if, every Sunday you went with your group, whatever that group is, be it, A book club or a religious group, or even just a group of like minded, strong women, [00:13:00] for instance.
[00:13:01] You know, would help you reinforce where your power lies, but the fact that you're isolated means you're almost subjugated to the whims of whatever comes down. 
[00:13:11] FAWN: And this is why we have this podcast, because we're taking a look at how we are so isolated, but we're not just saying, Hey, we're isolated. What we're doing on this podcast is actually giving tools that may not seem like it
[00:13:25] per episode. But if you have been in it with us, you realize, hopefully, that we're actually discussing these things and coming up with solutions. Or even if we can't come up with a solution, just the mere fact of speaking about it and talking about our emotions about it changes things for the better. It brings light to the situation.
[00:13:48] Anyway, we can talk about every single one of these. 13 tactics forever. I'm just going to go to number two.
[00:13:56] Never go outside the expertise of your people. [00:14:00] Stick to tactics. I can't say that word stick to tactics Stick to test stick to tactics that your group can execute effectively. Operating outside of your group's skillset can lead to confusion, mistakes and loss of morale. 
[00:14:17] MATT: Which ties into a later one for sure. But yeah, let's keep it simple, silly. If your group is all engineers, then speak in engineering terms.
[00:14:26] If your group is all. Um, I don't know, uh, warehouse workers, which I have been, speak in those terms. Know your audience. It 
[00:14:35] FAWN: just, it also, going back to relationships, it reminds me of family, they don't like anything from another culture. They feel so uncomfortable if someone is speaking a different language.
[00:14:49] Or like, if we ever talk about, oh, other countries, they get so offended immediately.
[00:14:54] MATT: Right. 
[00:14:55] FAWN: About how great the United States is and what are you even [00:15:00] doing talking about another country? 
[00:15:01] MATT: Unless it's been pre sanitized and we have no idea that, like, coffee came from Ethiopia or, you know.
[00:15:09] Hamoose is not, was not invented by an American company. 
[00:15:13] FAWN: But, again, about the American culture, how come we don't learn three languages at the same time when we're in preschool like other countries do? You know? Come on! What's the point? Like, what, what is the harm?
[00:15:29] People get so offended here. 
[00:15:32] MATT: Anyways. 
[00:15:33] FAWN: Alright, number three. Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Push your opponent into unfamiliar territory where they are uncomfortable and vulnerable. This will cause them to react poorly or make mistakes. Isn't that what we just said? This is why they don't like to go out for outside expertise, right?
[00:15:57] Right. Because they [00:16:00] consider it a weakness rather than just learning. But then here it says, if you throw them the unfamiliar, that it will basically Have them react in a negative way. So something that is not something that they're used to. 
[00:16:17] MATT: People like what they like and they, you know, it's God, it comes from the ancient Greeks, xenophobia.
[00:16:24] I mean, they had a whole term for fear of the foreign. 
[00:16:27] FAWN: But again, like all these can be used to understand why we're not together. Number four, make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. Hold your opponent. Again, remember these tactics are here to break down society, right? So make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.
[00:16:49] Hold your opponent accountable to the standards they profess to follow. This exposes hypocrisy and forces them into difficult situations. [00:17:00] Okay, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I often think about politicians. When we were growing up, how many men in office did you hear proclaim how awful it was to be homosexual?
[00:17:13] and then all of a sudden they would be having sex with a minor boy in a bathroom. Do you remember? There were so many times. See, I didn't want to 
[00:17:20] MATT: go there. I just wanted to talk about mahatma Gandhi's passive resistance, for goodness sake, do we have to go there? Can't we just say Gandhi shamed the British people into freeing India?
[00:17:35] Has a nicer ring, doesn't it? 
[00:17:37] FAWN: I don't know what that has to do with the hypocrisy. 
[00:17:40] MATT: Well, 
[00:17:42] FAWN: he shamed, 
[00:17:43] MATT: he shamed, and this is politics on the grand scale, he shamed the British Empire into freeing India. You 
[00:17:50] FAWN: can't shame people anymore these days. 
[00:17:52] MATT: That doesn't work anymore. Understand your playing field. Again, earlier rules, okay?
[00:17:57] Now, all of the, all of the rules [00:18:00] and all of the examples inside of this book, you can't use anymore because Everybody knows them and it this was yeah, this was 50 years ago. 
[00:18:08] FAWN: Yeah, but Matt this is still being played out 
[00:18:11] MATT: You know, no, and though the rules certainly are but the examples you can't use, right?
[00:18:16] FAWN: Well, I can still use those examples Anytime I hear either politician say something that is inappropriate They're such hypocrites. I can see both sides doing that. 
[00:18:29] MATT: Yes, but there was a Canadian somebody who was literally photographed in college in blackface who is still in power. Justin Trudeau. Okay, so, people find excuses for historical events, even well documented ones.
[00:18:47] So again, you have to get 
[00:18:48] FAWN: into an argument, and I don't want to be careful, I'm just telling you my feelings. Does that not, do you understand? I do, completely. This is what I'm feeling, and I'm sorry I don't [00:19:00] have a PhD, but I can tell you, I've been noticing this my entire life. Okay, and I'm giving big examples that piss people off.
[00:19:08] For example, the politicians. Can I tap now? Okay, Matt's tapping. Fine. Okay. Number five. Are we on number five? 
[00:19:16] MATT: I think so.
[00:19:17] FAWN: Number five. Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. Humor and ridicule are powerful because they are difficult to counter and make the opponent appear foolish or weak.
[00:19:28] It also energizes supporters. I mean, again, American politics. Look at all the ways that, one opponent is constantly made fun of for makeup, for hair, for body image, and then the other side ridiculed for, I don't know, I'm gonna go back, but A female politician being ridiculed for wearing suits or looking, not looking the way they want a female to look or the [00:20:00] laugh that they may have.
[00:20:01] Everyone ridicules to, we were talking about this last week, weren't we? How comedians make us feel better because you're making fun of what is terrifying you. And you feel less alone and more empowered. This is happening everywhere.
[00:20:16] Like everyone is using these tactics, not just one political party. All of them are. Should I go on to the next one? 
[00:20:24] MATT: Ridicule is hard too, because it's like the smart money is always on ignoring it. But yet the not smart money is on ignoring it. So it's like, even if it's completely ludicrous, the accusation or the, statement that's made to ridicule you, it's almost like addressing it as worse, but not addressing it is still, ah, nevermind.
[00:20:48] FAWN: It's kind of like ignoring the person. And it's also, remember years ago. How, when people wanted to speak about a whole culture and like [00:21:00] just randomly describe a whole entire culture, they would describe them as crazy. 
[00:21:06] MATT: Yes. 
[00:21:07] FAWN: Because they didn't understand 
[00:21:09] MATT: their motivation, their 
[00:21:10] FAWN: motivations, or yes, they were very, very bad people.
[00:21:15] But then the whole culture was placed into that realm. With these bad people and anyone from there was crazy, 
[00:21:26] MATT: right? Cause crazy is easy. You can dismiss that again, foreign again, you know, welcome to, let's start taking a look back up the rules, right? 
[00:21:36] FAWN: Even if it's not foreign., it's too painful to look at, so we're just gonna label it with this one thing so we can throw it in the trash.
[00:21:44] MATT: Well, I don't have three weeks to understand the geopolitical manifestations of, well, guess what, you should probably maybe take some of that time, those three weeks, as opposed to throwing down a single word in summary. 
[00:21:57] FAWN: It makes me think of the black swan guy, the guy [00:22:00] who, his whole living was negotiating the release of hostages.
[00:22:05] That's his job. And what he was saying is you have to connect with the other person and hear them He's talking about the enemy right you have to develop a sense of Bonding with them. It came down to them being heard and you know, I can't I can't say this for a person Nevermind, this is a really touchy subject.
[00:22:27] This 
[00:22:27] MATT: is a very touchy subject, but there's, there's so much history out there that is blissfully ignored from, um, oh my goodness, pogroms in, Eastern European nations to, um, uh, how many people even know about, the Islamic caliphate or that, Spain was, once upon a time, at least the southern part of it, embraced, Islam.
[00:22:54] I mean, for goodness sake. And what's the difference? why Pakistanis and Indians have a natural [00:23:00] antagonism towards each other? 
[00:23:01] FAWN: Right. And all this needs to be seen studied and understood. 
[00:23:07] MATT: There's a lot of context. But I'm 
[00:23:08] FAWN: also not trying to put this together with evil. Okay?
[00:23:12] I'm not talking about evil. Terrorism. Okay. This is something different that I'm talking about that we're talking about. So we're not making excuses for evil here totally different. Okay Let's just go to the next one because there's 13 number six a good tactic is one your people enjoy.
[00:23:33] The best tactics are those that keep your supporters engaged and motivated. If your group is having fun, They will be more likely to stay involved and committed. 
[00:23:44] MATT: And Ridicule certainly focuses in on that if you can get everybody, you know, wearing goofy t shirts to make fun of somebody or whatever. Until 
[00:23:52] FAWN: number seven, a tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.
[00:23:57] Don't let a tactic become stale. [00:24:00] Constantly evolve your strategies to maintain momentum and interest among your supporters. Yeah. After a while, you stop hearing the thing you always hear, right? It is embedded in your spirit though. So we need to be careful. Much like, like subliminal language, you know?
[00:24:19] FAWN: Number eight, keep the pressure on. Never let up. Apply continuous pressure to the opposition to keep them off balance and force them to respond. Sustained pressure can wear down their defenses. I mean, we learned this in martial arts.
[00:24:36] I mean, I did. Did Aikido do that? 
[00:24:38] MATT: Well, it was about walking down the path that you want to walk down. So, it's acknowledging that somebody will try this. Yes. 
[00:24:47] FAWN: And like, a Muhammad Ali, you know, you're constantly running around them. They don't have the stamina. To keep going 
[00:24:55] MATT: particularly when you keep approaching them in new ways that ridicule them and that [00:25:00] your people find Interesting engaging and fun.
[00:25:03] FAWN: Here's number nine Which is really like one of the things that's happening now Here it is, number nine, the threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself. The fear of what might happen can often be more effective than actually carrying out the action. This plays into people's anxieties
[00:25:25] making them more likely to compromise or retreat.
[00:25:29] MATT: And that, that's what's happened the whole way through. Now in the book, he is very much kind of centering in because he spent an interesting amount of time like, motivating and inspiring and creating these tactics. But a lot of the fear was, Oh no, it's black people.
[00:25:47] Seriously. Well, uh, And, and he used that threat and that threat carefully without forcing the other person to say, Oh my goodness, I'm racist because this makes me [00:26:00] uncomfortable in order to get things to happen. Like black people into management, training programs. department stores of all places, you know, segregating, getting better schooling, getting infant care, getting a lot of good stuff across these racial lines.
[00:26:18] FAWN: Wait, so what are you saying? So was he fighting for the black people? He was. Okay. 
[00:26:21] MATT: He was. But the threat was, you know, black people will dot dot dot, which is an interesting kind of narrow line to run. But this was 1971.
[00:26:31] FAWN: I'm afraid to say what I'm about to say. 
[00:26:34] MATT: Uh 
[00:26:34] FAWN: oh. But. Gun control is out of control in the United States. I feel like if there was a campaign for people of color to really have guns, then there would be rules against having guns. 
[00:26:48] MATT: And there you go, it's the implied threat. 
[00:26:51] FAWN: Okay, um, moving on. Are we on number 10?
[00:26:56] Number 10, the major premise for tactics [00:27:00] is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. 
[00:27:10] MATT: So we're back to pressure. 
[00:27:11] FAWN: Wait, what is that? The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition.
[00:27:21] Plan and execute operations that keep your opponent under constant strain, forcing them to respond to your agenda rather than setting their own. I mean, perfect example of friendship. Our relationships, our families, you're constantly under the strain of something else that you don't even have time to focus on your own well being.
[00:27:46] Taking care of your home, taking care of your family. Immediately if we have children, they're put into daycare. Immediately if a person reaches a certain age. And develops certain, I don't know, physical problems, [00:28:00] immediately they're put into a home. It's separating, separating, separating. Why? Because we can't take care of each other.
[00:28:06] MATT: Right. And then we end up spending time chasing random dopamine hits, too. Which is a fun thing. Which drags us completely off the subject, but even when we have a spare moment, we can get a sharp dopamine hit in, like, Five minutes if we go looking for it out there on the interwebs 
[00:28:25] FAWN: Which is changing our behaviors and our minds the internet.
[00:28:29] Yes. So that's a dangerous place to go. It is Okay, number 11 
[00:28:35] If you push a negative hard enough and deep enough it will break through into its counter side So every negative action or issue has the potential to be flipped into something positive for your cause.
[00:28:48] Persist in highlighting problems until the opposition is forced into a defensive or contradictory position.
[00:28:57] Their negatives being displayed all over the [00:29:00] place. 
[00:29:00] MATT: Yeah, there are, but the key is, is that you're understand the morality of your opponent. And then figure out how the morality of your opponent, which is everyone should have a wonderful education. Well, guess what? These schools are shite. Oh, uh, uh, uh, I'm on the defensive.
[00:29:17] I'm on the back foot. And I, I can no longer act in a moral fashion, which is intolerable, perhaps, to the group that you're targeting. That's, that's where it all gets fun. And when you call them out on it, as opposed to just letting things be, and you constantly put pressure on them, you can affect change, is what he's saying.
[00:29:35] FAWN: Number Twelve? Twelve. Number twelve. The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative. You must offer solutions in addition to criticism. After attacking a problem, be ready to present a feasible and appealing alternative that your audience can rally behind. 
[00:29:57] MATT: And this is the sticking part.
[00:29:58] This is the big, [00:30:00] this is the big one. This is the big kind of issue. I remember, I used to love arguing. Hey, I still do. But, um, one time somebody challenged me and said, okay, fine, what would you do about it? I was just tearing something down. So 
[00:30:14] FAWN: instead of complaining, can you come up with a solution? Right.
[00:30:18] MATT: Doesn't matter what it is, which is why now I think whenever I'm, whenever I look at a problem, I try and see what a solution might be. 
[00:30:25] FAWN: Right. 
[00:30:26] MATT: Even if it's horrific, the fact that I could come up with a solution means there must be another one out there somewhere. If I can't come up with any solution, then maybe I just need to shut up or do some more research before I start getting myself involved.
[00:30:41] A perfect example was when I was in, at university. We had a rally. Stop animal testing. There's animal testing happening on campus. Stop animal testing. I, I heard about this afterwards. I did not participate, probably because I didn't know, but I, I'm not sure. Anyways, somebody from inside came out and said, [00:31:00] Okay, how about if we, one, uh, have a state board that oversees all testing and make sure that it's humane and safe.
[00:31:09] B, you know, Forced to publish all our stuff, you know, forced to publish all our research as well as all the negative and or positive consequences thereof and something else and the audience is like Whoo hoo big victory for us. Well, they were already doing all of those things Protest over because you can't just stand there and protest you have to have an agenda You have to have a path forward a positive path forward 
[00:31:40] FAWN: Yeah, and That comes from not thinking things through, not thinking, not looking into the future, 
[00:31:46] MATT: right?
[00:31:46] FAWN: Okay, 13 pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. Ouch. Focus your attention on a specific individual or entity. Here. Okay, this is the gold one [00:32:00] right now for me. Okay, especially with what's happening with this generation. Okay, let me repeat number 13. Pick the target, freeze it, Polarize it, pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.
[00:32:17] I'm gonna take that back, it's not just this generation. Every few years, have you noticed Matt? There's a particular target, and I'm not saying that it shouldn't be the target, but there's focus on something, and then it suddenly disappears pretty much overnight. For example, I heard Greg Brayden bring this up too, when he was talking about this.
[00:32:42] What happened to Occupy Wall Street? Didn't seem like poof they disappeared right anyway, let me We'll talk about that in a second. Let me just read this. So number 13 pick the target freeze it personalize it and polarize it focus your attention on a specific individual or [00:33:00] entity. By personalizing the conflict and making it about a clear enemy you create a symbol for your cause and simplify the issue Polarization Polarization sharpens the lines of conflict, making it easier to mobilize supporters.
[00:33:22] Should I read that again? By personalizing the conflict and making it about a clear enemy, you create a symbol for your cause and simplify the issue. Polarization sharpens the lens of conflict, making it easier to mobilize supporters. 
[00:33:39] If you think about it, going back to, Occupy Wall Street. 
[00:33:44] MATT: Mm hmm. 
[00:33:45] FAWN: Yes, it was the same time that you and I were having major financial problems. Um, and yeah, so were a lot of other people. It was around the time that people were losing their homes. Everything was crashing, [00:34:00] remember? Right, yes. When, when Elle was born, we were at the hospital and, We're both in, she was in NICU.
[00:34:09] I, I was having problems. We were having problems with the doctors in the hospital. Totally mistreated by these people and so we were there for a long time and the TV was on. We had no contact with the outside world. It was just us. We were stuck at the hospital fighting for our lives. And the TV was on and it was like Armageddon out there.
[00:34:35] Remember? Financial Armageddon. Everything was crashing. Right. And I, and I didn't care because we were fighting for our lives, but like, I was looking at it and I'm like, I, I wasn't even attached to it, but I could see people were freaking out. The dollar hit an all time low or something. Something like that.
[00:34:53] Things were crashing. The financial structure was crumbling and you know, and [00:35:00] it was shortly after that Occupy Wall Street was really out there and it was pitting the poor against the rich and anyone who was having any kind of financial conflict was seen as The, um, the victim. Correct? Right. And so, yeah, we were going through it, so, you know, your feeling is to go, yeah, these people are stealing from us!
[00:35:26] You know, these, it was pitting one group against the other, and it was charged, boy. Wasn't it charged? It was. I mean, Yeah. You know, all the rage I felt at the hospital, the way we were treated, all the rage I felt financially, the injustice of the healthcare system and all the money we had to pay based on major mistakes the hospital made that wiped out our funds that we had to pay for for years.
[00:35:57] The house that suddenly [00:36:00] lost all its value.
[00:36:02] Getting unemployed? Having babies to take care of? I mean, yeah, the rage was there. For me. 
[00:36:11] MATT: Right. 
[00:36:12] FAWN: For you, too. 
[00:36:13] MATT: But in point of fact, Occupy Wall Street never adjusted their tactics. Never went through ridicule, as far as I could tell. And didn't really, I mean they personalized, but didn't personalize, it wasn't centered on an entity, a person.
[00:36:30] The trick is, is, I, what, 
[00:36:31] FAWN: I think, I'm sorry, the trick is, 
[00:36:33] MATT: The, I'm sorry, not trick, say, to say trick almost sounds like you trivialize it, but, Kind of the central message is you find that person when, Roger and me, that guy who did Roger and me, he personalized it to the president of General Motors. Wasn't it?
[00:36:49] When we had the election and, uh, there was a gentleman who was on furlough, there was not gentleman, there was a felon, uh, convicted felon on furlough who ended [00:37:00] up killing somebody. That was the one key issue of that presidential election. 
[00:37:06] FAWN: You're looking at the whole picture. I'm just looking at how this
[00:37:09] was playing out, how this has been playing out the whole time we've been alive is every few years there is a movement to pit one group against the other and you think okay well that was against the poor against the rich fine yeah but then as soon as that disappeared there was another one. There's always been something man against women, women against Parents against children, this religion against this religion, this culture against this culture, black against white, there is always something that is pitting us apart and eventually every single group gets affected.
[00:37:53] Eventually you are one of those people that's being pitted against the other. Eventually [00:38:00] we're all in it fighting because every, like meticulously every year. Or every few years, haven't you noticed that there's something that's in a, that's involved in a fight? And right now I think it's, gender issues.
[00:38:20] MATT: Certainly in America, but there's an awful lot No, it's all 
[00:38:22] FAWN: around the world. 
[00:38:23] MATT: But there's an awful lot going on in Israel, Ukraine, North Korea. 
[00:38:28] FAWN: Anyway, there's always, I'm just saying they've got us all at this point. This has been playing out for so long. So the four major ones to me are make the enemy live up to their own book of rules.
[00:38:42] Ridicule is, is the most potent weapon. Keeping the pressure on, picking the target, freezing it, personalizing it, and polarizing it. Basically pitting us against each other. I just, I know this was a lot, but. Especially in terms of [00:39:00] relationships, in terms of community. Think about all of this, and I think if we realize what's happening, it can clear up the veil, it can lift up the tarp that's been put over our heads where we can't see straight.
[00:39:15] I think as long as we become aware of this, we can have better relationships. What do you think, Matt? 
[00:39:23] MATT: I think you're absolutely right, and I also wanted to throw down a quote from the book because, yeah, the book certainly is very heady, it's very uncomfortable, it made me feel dirty reading it, but even, and of course the guy who wrote the book ended up dying like a year after he wrote the book, so God knows what he would have written later and how he would have contemplated it later.
[00:39:52] But one of the things he does say, one of the quotes from the book that I kind of want to end the show on myself, [00:40:00] is A major revolution to be won in the immediate future is the dissipation of man's illusion that his own welfare can be separate from that of all others. As long as man is shackled to this myth, so long will the human spirit languish.
[00:40:20] Concern for our private material well being with disregard for the well being of others is immoral according to the precepts of our Judeo Christian civilization, but worse, it is stupidity worthy of the lower animals. Perfect. 
[00:40:40] Okay,
[00:40:42] I guess that's the show then. So wow. Thank you so much for going on this journey with us 
[00:40:49] FAWN: Have a beautiful every day No, we can't leave you love is winning love is winning y'all everybody love is winning Okay, [00:41:00] don't worry. Don't worry 
[00:41:03] MATT: But be aware of what's happening of the things happening around you 
[00:41:07] FAWN: love is winning if you need us reach out take care.
[00:41:12] Everything's gonna be okay
[00:41:13] MATT: be well.