"Sacred Commerce, Sacred Friend: Navigating Friendship and Business for Lasting Success"

Sacred Commerce, Sacred Friend
MATT: [00:00:00] Love you, sweet pea. 
Fawn: Love you, baby. Love 
MATT: is 
Fawn: winning. Love is winning. Hello. Welcome back, everybody. Welcome to 
MATT: our friendly world. 
Fawn: Welcome to our friendly world. That is correct. Um, all right. I, I was going to say I made a new friend, yay, but I don't, I don't know if I should say I, I should say I made a new friend.
How about met? I met a new friend. A new friend came into my life at a time where, just like, how angels show up. Perfect timing. Okay, so, it all happened because it was very stressful. Week like things have always been stressful, but I was overwhelmed this week What we're talking about in this episode, by the way is of course friendship But it also relates to business and we've always called it not always but like I don't know how many years ago Like 15 years ago started calling it sacred 
MATT: commerce and we found Somebody else [00:01:00] referred to it the same way.
Fawn: Yeah, there was a vegan restaurant that does that. So, Sacred Commerce, Sacred Friend, and the person that I met that I want to introduce you guys to, I really think that this person is just so beautiful. And if I can do anything to promote this person and what he's doing, I'd like to do so right now. So, a big, big thank you, a big introduction to our friend, Gabe Fletcher.
His podcast is Talkin Paint Podcast. Gabe, thank you so much. Okay, so what happened was, and the reason why I want to bring it back to Sacred Commerce is I learned so much as a photographer, as a professional photographer. I learned so much about myself, I learned about society, I learned about business, really.
And one of the things we talked about a few weeks ago was sales. Remember how I told you that I was so offended when these older people in the photography industry told me to go into [00:02:00] sales, not to give up photography, but learn sales. And I was so offended because I had that notion of that image in my head of a very sleazy person that's selling you a horrible car, you know, will do anything 
anything it takes to get your money, all for their own benefit, not caring about your welfare at all. So, that was my idea. That's why I was offended. I'm like, you want me to become like that? For my photography? I'm trying to do humanitarian kind of work with photography? Like, You want me to become that? I didn't get it.
I didn't get it until I came across the art world, the inner layers of the art world, and noticed how corrupt they truly are, and how useless it is to use them. Basically, like, they profit off of you, you as an artist, if you do ever You Ever get taken on by [00:03:00] these people. It's a one time transaction for you.
Meanwhile, other people will make money off of you and you've, well, you've lost that you were out of the picture. I mean, that's just one little bit of it. I'm very, very. Against the whole art world now, for, have been for a long time. And what I'm trying to say is that I've had so many jobs, and I've had so many experiences, and so much disappointment, I have felt, looking at people, and the way they behave, and the way they speak to each other.
The way they treat the world, like, there's no care. There's, it's just, um, you know, the term in America is dog eat dog. I really don't understand what that means. I Like, why would you pick that term? Dogs are so lovely. 
MATT: They can be, and they can also be very vicious. 
Fawn: But they don't eat each other. You know, I think humans are the only animals that kill others for fun. You know, other animals for fun. Anyway, that's [00:04:00] another subject. So back to Gabe. I was in a PodFest meeting. Which I have been away from for a few months now just because it's hard to be part of meetings anymore I can't go on to zoom calls anymore the way I used to Anyway, I finally got on and I missed all these people so much because what I noticed from the podcast field And also the voice acting field.
They're quite similar in that there's no sense of Aggressive competition or really any kind of competition They're such a loving community. The atmosphere is such that everyone is truly like wanting to help other people out. You want to help your fellow friend out and no one is taking from you.
There's no sense of scarcity I'm not saying I don't want to paint a huge broad picture I'm sure there are people who are like that but for the majority, it's such [00:05:00] a Lovely feel and there's no ageism either Like you can work and be whatever age you are or whatever ethnicity It doesn't matter, not that it should matter, but I'm saying it's, it's all open and loving.
It's an open field. And so we were talking about so many things we were talking about going to YouTube, which by the way, those of you listening, I've always been against having a podcast that is on video just because I feel like we're so bombarded with so many things clamoring for our attention that it's so nice to just listen to something.
Just one thing. Like, we don't have commercials. We don't have music aside from our intro and outro. It's just the sound of a friend talking to you and quiet. And I think we need that. We need to hear each other's breath. We need to hear each other's voices and not all these other bells and whistles [00:06:00] and, and things that really distract us, like, what is that person wearing?
What do they look like? Where are they sitting? And what, where'd they get that thing in the background or what's happening with their hair? It's all is such a distraction. Right. And I think it's stressful that on a level we're not appreciating or understanding. 
MATT: Absolutely. And also , if it's on video, odds are it's not going to be edited.
Fawn: No, it will be edited. No, it's, oh, it is edited. 
MATT: Well, then people are jumping around. 
Fawn: No, it's now so seamless, Matt. 
MATT: You 
Fawn: know, the power of all the tools we use now at our disposal. I'm saying 
MATT: though, is audio. We don't have to worry about synchronizing. That's just, I'm getting caught in the minutiae. 
Fawn: Yeah. Well, we have a program that will do that. I just don't like to be on camera. I never have. That's why I was a [00:07:00] photographer. I wanted to be behind the camera because whoever, if ever anyone photographed me, I looked like Shrek, like horrible. And people were like, Oh, you look good.
I'm like, you think that looks good? What do you think I look like? Like, that's, you caught me. in some dimension that is not me, that is not how I see myself. That is not who I am. You know what I'm saying? It's not my vibration even. And so I've always wanted to photograph people because I understand People not caring and not being sensitive enough to know when I'm photographing this person, how am I photographing them?
In what light am I photographing them? And I'm not just talking about physical light either. I'm talking about in all ways, holistically, how am I portraying this scene, this person, this personality, [00:08:00] this spirit, right? And so anyway, , it's hard for me to be on camera and that was the whole meeting was, we all need to go on YouTube now because YouTube has the podcast version.
And I think actually ours is there, but they were saying it's important to have your face on there. So you need to be on camera. And so I was saying, Oh, even if I did. Cause I'm not into it, but even if I did, I do not have the time to invest in figuring out how to edit that. And I know it's simple.
Everyone says, Oh, it's so simple. You already have the tools. Just do it. I'm like, I'm already just doing everything else. It's too overwhelming. And so in the comments in the meeting, I made a comment about my overwhelm. And so Gabe reached out to me. There's so many people on this video call, right? The Zoom call.
He reached out to me and he's like, Look, I just want to pay it forward and I'd love to help you [00:09:00] out. Anyway, we had, um, it was supposed to be like a quick little 20 minute thing. But, wow, what a beautiful person. And you're right, Matt. Every time we meet a Gabriel, it's like Archangel Gabriel. Like, the archangel of creativity, actually.
is what Gabriel is. Gabriel as in the angel. Anyway, so we spoke for such a long time and I was so impressed by everything he was doing. And although I'm not a car person, Matt loves cars. Um, everything he was talking about, about his industry. And I started listening to his podcast and I love it. You know, they're talking about paint and cars and you know, like he's talking about business and he has that sacred mentality.
He has that mentality that I learned way later in my career of, let's say I'm photographing something. It's not about me showcasing my work. [00:10:00] I'm here to provide you with something that will elevate you, that will elevate what you're working on. If I'm selling you bread, it's not about me. The bread should not be entering your physical body and saying, that's me, Fawn.
I'm so great. It's supposed to nourish you and make you feel good and healthy and make you thrive, make you come alive. Right? It's not about me. I'm supposed to provide you with benefit. And so that's what I learned with photography. I'm like, it shouldn't be about me. And that's why architectural photography, like I did high end architectural photography, works for huge, amazing architects.
It was wonderful. It was not about me. People saw beautiful images, but it wasn't like, me. The client was like, wow, look at what I made. You know what I'm saying? That's mine. I [00:11:00] made that because you're looking at a photograph of what they did, right? But photographed in just such a way. Anyway, and so that is how Gabe is and Gabe Fletcher, my goodness, I mean, all hats off to you.
And also our friend, I wanted to make another shout out to our friend, Amy, Amy Fagan of the beautiful podcast, Grounded in Maine. You all like really good people. There's so many beautiful friends out there, you guys. And going back to, again, there is a new way to live. And it's always been there, but I think that we need to really support each other and know that there's no competition.
We are all here as friends. The world is a small town, and everyone is your friend. We're here to help each other. And those who don't help you, well then, great, you know, you don't have to hang out with them. You can hang out with us. We can hang out with you. We can, we can do amazing things [00:12:00] together, right?
A small amount of support. I mean, Gabe got on the phone on the not phone, but on zoom with me within the first 30 seconds. I was crying because he offered such kindness in just the way he asked how I was doing. That was so sincere. That Yeah. Because I was going through so much because we had been. I was going through some stress and I hadn't slept and I was driving one of our kids to the emergency room in the middle of the night and then rushing back home and then going to the doctor again and then going to the pharmacist and then I had to do, like, thank goodness, like, I'm getting amazing auditions.
Because I'm, I now have a manager, you know, like I was doing these things and then I, I was meeting with Gabe and I was running, running, running and he's like, how are you? And I just fell apart and started crying. And it was like, he didn't use it against me, which [00:13:00] is some, what some people can do. It was so, he held me like in a beautiful way.
Not like that Matt, Matt raised his eyebrows. No, but you, the way we can hold each other, right. Like, wow, that is such great food. That is nourishment right there. That has fueled me now, even though I still haven't really slept since, since then, even I am fueled and inspired and hopeful. Thank you, Gabe. Gabe Fletcher, Amy Fagan, Michelle Silence.
Love you guys. There's so many of you that are listening. I really want to thank you. But anyway, back to what we were saying about this whole. world we're in right now. That's my perspective. I feel like we need to incorporate friendship. We need to remember the art of friendship.
But also remember it especially so, not but so, especially so in commerce and business. 
MATT: [00:14:00] Interesting that you mentioned this because there I was minding my own business. Computer programmer, as you all know, there's one site all computer programmers go to. probably on a daily basis. It doesn't matter who you are, what you do.
If you write code, you code, you go there and it's called stack overflow. And it's the place that seems to have all of the answers, or at least people asking the same questions you're asking whenever you get lost. So, of course, you look around and see what other people are talking about, and there was a link.
Oh my god. Is this the one that made you cry? To their blog. Yes. Oh my god. But I cry at songs now, so let's, let's let that go. And it was like, do you want to be a great software developer? Then don't be a jerk. How can you not click on that? Took me to a Microsoft article. Oh my god, I've never read the [00:15:00] word great so many times, and it's been so uncomfortable.
Fawn: Why? Why do you mean? What happened? 
MATT: Because it's 
Fawn: Matt's looking at Are you looking at the article right now? 
MATT: Great software developers 
Fawn: are 
MATT: humble. 
Fawn: Isn't that with everything? All the greats are always humble. They're too busy doing their thing. 
MATT: Great software developers ask for help. And this is data driven.
This isn't like somebody, one person kind of saying, hmm, at some company, nobody's ever heard of before. This was Microsoft compiled this. And as I'm reading it, I'm like, these are all the things that I've said for so long and all the things that, you know, I've worked with a lot of people who don't hold these things as [00:16:00] important.
Fawn: They look at it as weakness. Like. Well, if you have to ask for 
MATT: help, obviously it's because you don't know, you're stupid. And they make these gross assumptions and it gets to the point, Oh my God, I had a job. We played, they had a foosball table and they would message every of this. We were all working in the office and they would message people, Hey, who wants to play foosball?
They literally believe that the better you played foosball, the better of a programmer you were. The things have nothing in common other than maybe there's some math to both, but literally because people have this rampant assumption that if you're good at one thing, you must be good at all things. And you know what?
If you're a really good jockey, odds are, You're really terrible at the high jump because typical good jockeys are very short and high [00:17:00] jumpers are very tall. So fundamentally can't make sense, but here we are and that's what we do. So anyways, it's good to be able to refer to a paper like this. And it's like a 78 page document, by the way, my God, that goes through all sorts of personality traits and what they do.
But it very again, and this is Microsoft. centers around sacred concepts and sacred commerce, 
Fawn: but they don't call it sacred. Of course not. 
MATT: Of course not. Absolutely not. But you know, and, and, and they keep saying great software developers, not good, not very good, but great. And it's like great software developers have good reputations.
They're well mannered, they're personable. And a fun one that got us in trouble a long time ago, they trade favors. I do you a solid, you do me a solid, simple, Direct, even outside of company politics and company hierarchy, [00:18:00] they do this great. So again, it's the rising tide lifts all ships. 
Fawn: And everything you just said is the key to friendship.
Be humble. Don't be a jerk. 
MATT: Don't be a jerk. 
Fawn: And ask for help. And those people who, when you do ask for help, look at you like, Oh, you're inferior. Uh, thank you very much for that bit of information. Now you can stay away from them. 
MATT: Right. Or I'm going to spend a minute trying to help you out. 
Fawn: Or they say in that minute, they're like, Google it.
Why don't you just Google that? Oh my gosh. We've run into so many people like that. I feel like I was just going to say something and I forgot. 
MATT: And of course the irony behind the just Google it is again, another one of these traits of great software developers is that they. Do some research beforehand before they come to you asking questions.
So you, it's almost like make the assumption if somebody asks you a random question, [00:19:00] unless it's offhanded in the middle of a conversation about 27, 000 other things, maybe it is off the cuff. But if it's not off the cuff, make the assumption that they're doing their due diligence. They're trying hard not to waste your time.
That's a personal beef. 
Fawn: Yeah, you are very, very sensitive to time and how your time could be wasted by people. And it makes sense. 
MATT: And I love wasting time though, too. So it's, there's a paradox. But that's different. You're, 
Fawn: you're using it, you're using it on your own to have fun. 
MATT: True. 
Fawn: But if you're waiting for someone for three hours and they don't respect your time and make you wait for three hours and you don't know what's going on, Yeah, you've wasted your life.
MATT: Likewise, if somebody schedules a meeting and doesn't have a plan, doesn't come to it with anything other than, Okay, let's talk about No. Give me something. 
Fawn: So this, [00:20:00] this, uh, going back to asking for help, you all know this one friend of mine who As time has gone by, I'm trying to wean myself off this person and everyone asks me why are you still friends with that person?
I still can't give you an answer. I don't know a part of my heart loves this person, right? But I also know that She could lie and she doesn't consider it lying. And for me, that's that's a deal breaker 
MATT: Well, she didn't go to my church. That's all I'm saying because you lie if you don't say stuff and you lie if you say stuff.
Fawn: What do you mean? 
MATT: Comission and omission is how it was described to me. I don't 
Fawn: understand what you're saying. 
MATT: So, you know, I might lie to somebody by saying, whoa, those are really beautiful shoes, when I think they're ugly. But then there's also the lying by omission just doesn't work. You neglect to mention something that you should have mentioned to them.
Fawn: So lying all the way around. 
MATT: [00:21:00] Yeah. Lying all the way around, but it's commission omission. 
Fawn: I just like, and as far as asking for help, one of the issues that has come up over the years has been, I'm very open about asking for help because I'm very confident in myself and, and everything. So I have no problem asking for help.
It doesn't, I don't feel inferior, but it's interesting, but I feel like this person sometimes treats me that way because I do ask for help. Right. Yes. Yeah. And that's 
MATT: the other thing is we don't afford oftentimes inside of non sacred commerce. You don't afford the world and opportunity to really change or people around you to change, evolve and grow.
Fawn: And it's really how they feel about themselves. Really? Like we were talking about a couple of weeks ago, like, Projection. Right, right. 
MATT: There's there's definitely a scarcity mindset. 
Fawn: Yeah, it's just so weird.
I really don't. I'm just like, like I said, I [00:22:00] think that it speaks volumes about what someone is going through. What I'm saying is I have not, I'm going to knock on wood, experienced that with the podcasting community or the voice acting community. It is so lovely. And I'm, I'm taking it as, as a big sign, as a way that is now flourishing throughout all industries.
Because obviously, hello, Microsoft is talking like that, right? 
MATT: Yes. 
Fawn: So I feel hopeful about our future. I know there's a lot happening and it's all so scary right now and everything is up in the air and it feels so terrible, but I look at stuff like this and I'm, and I, and I look at people like Gabe, Gabe Fletcher, you know, and I'm like, there you go.
Because if you look at Gabe Fletcher, it's like looking at you, Matt, you look like a scary guy. Oh, 
MATT: thank you. [00:23:00] Love you too. 
Fawn: I love you. But you are like, Like a viking, you know, a viking, that's why I think people, I'm going to knock on wood again, people treat you with respect because they're kind of afraid of you.
You know what I'm saying? As opposed to me, they feel like they can say or do anything, but little do they know you're the peaceful one and I'm the one who would probably blow some knees out if I had to. But I'm saying, not anymore, you guys. Anyway, I'm peaceful. Um, but I think. Nevermind. Until. No, I just remember coffee this morning.
Heyo! I have not been feeling peaceful. I get mad. I get mad. Anyways. I hope so. Anyway, what was I saying? Um, I feel optimistic about the future because I do believe that this friendship The art of friendship is growing [00:24:00] and I think we're realizing that it needs to not be separate from, separated is what I was going to say.
It doesn't have to be separated by how we do business, you know? Yes. If they can do casual Fridays and you can walk in looking like a sloppy mess with jeans on, I think you you could be kind and friendly to people 
MATT: Right. And if you can be successful working from home, you better be doing water coolers, meaning having informal chats with your coworkers, because that's the way you gain understanding.
That's the way you get a sense of that was another thing that they highlighted was great software engineers. have an understanding of the people around them, what their skills are, what their desires are. And this isn't even a manager we're talking here. Managers should absolutely know this. I set a very high bar for anybody who even thinks about managing me, which is [00:25:00] why I'm a team lead now because I can't imagine being led by any of the other team leads.
That's a whole other story. Again, manage expectations and all sorts of other like wonderful things that translate to friendship as well. 
Fawn: And above all, hold your integrity. If you're going to do something, if you're going to produce something, if you're going to act in any way, live, breathe, behave, 
MATT: yes, 
Fawn: do so with the highest integrity for yourself.
If you're going to make something. Do it right. Do it with the highest love. 
MATT: Has a good reputation. Creates shared understanding. Creates shared success. Creates a safe haven. 
Fawn: All relates to friendship. It looks like they just copied a friendship. Um, what do you call it? Like, a mission statement. To 
MATT: be fair, I'm in the upper right hand quadrant for most of this.
The left hand side is much more [00:26:00] kind of focused towards more businessy stuff. These are the quote, they call them the soft skills, but skills. 
Fawn: Yeah, they don't take soft skills seriously. Like it's not a real thing. 
MATT: Right. Yeah, I had to give a review of, of a developer and he was very technical, technically very good.
But I was like, you already know technically you're, you're good. Your soft skills suck. You need to really work on those if you want to be anything. 
Fawn: I'm glad that the term soft skills is now here because when I was a corporate photographer, I worked at Aveda. I overheard someone who's supposed to be a friend talk behind my back.
Basically, she was saying, why is she here? Right? Meaning me. Like, what am I doing here? How did I get my position? Because I had a pretty high position. And her manager, she went off in the kindest way, but she went off and said, and they had no idea I was listening. This was back in the day with [00:27:00] cubicles.
They didn't know I was in my cubicle and I could hear. And so she said. You have no idea what she's offering. And she was talking about soft skills, which I had in spades. And she was saying what a benefit I am in the company, even though I don't have whatever the degrees or whatever they were looking for that I didn't have.
You know what I'm saying? I offered something completely different. And I was hired because the CEO was that way. And, you know, we quite literally ran into each other at a mall and started talking about something we were both interested in. And we hit it off. And I said, I really want to work for your company.
Like, I love what you're doing. I want to be a part of that. I want, I want to contribute to that. Like, can we work together? Boom. A position was made for me. Pissed people off though. Of course. Because they didn't understand soft skills. They did not understand how important that was. 
MATT: Well, the real danger.
[00:28:00] Like when you see something, especially for me, when I see something like this, I'm like, Oh, well I have this and this and this and this and this. And I'm inclined to let it go. But you know, once I get past the initial tear filled reading of it going, Oh my God, this is all the stuff I've been saying forever.
But it's, it's, there's more to it than that. It's constantly evolving. It's long term, it's creative, and it's really an understanding. I think that the world is officially coming to that. What was true yesterday ain't going to be true tomorrow. 
Fawn: Say it again, Matt, say it again, slowly, please. 
MATT: What was true yesterday isn't necessarily going to be true tomorrow.
Fawn: Hello. 
MATT: And that goes for friendships too. 
Fawn: Yeah, but also that keeps you young. That's like, when we understand that, that's what resilience is. That's when we can fly around [00:29:00] and like be flexible to come to that term of that understanding. 
MATT: Right. Yeah. They actually wrote, because this was published in 2019, I came upon it late.
They wrote persevering. But yes. 
Fawn: Yeah. Resilience came in. Uh, for me, really resilience came in because I, I went to so many workshops with Gregg Braided and they talk about telomeres and resilience and how you can surpass age. Right. Yeah. 
MATT: Right. 
Fawn: You can make your cells become younger through resilience when you understand it.
You are superhuman. Well, shall we leave it here? Did you want to say other things? I'm good. That's it for today. Let's ponder that though. 
MATT: And of course, one more shout out for Gabe. 
Fawn: Gabe Fletcher. Oh my good, I think he's your new best friend, Matt. I 
MATT: haven't even talked to him yet. 
Fawn: I'm telling you, I can spot him.
He's your new best friend. 
MATT: Understood. Understood. 
Fawn: Okay. Thank you, [00:30:00] everyone. We'll talk to you in just a few days. And if you need us before that, you know, we are here. So reach out to us. We love you so much. Have a beautiful every day. No matter what. 
MATT: Be well.