The Art of Being INTERESTED, not Interesting

Be Interested, Not Interesting
Fawn: [00:00:00] Hi, everybody. Welcome back. 
MATT: Hello. 
Fawn: Where we left off last week was, okay, let's go out there and find people opposite from us. How do you find that? How do you find, where do you go even? Right. I was saying you should take classes. You're like, you should join a group. I'm like, I'm not a joiner
I don't want to join. So tell us what you did, Matt. 
MATT: I don't want to, but okay. Uh, so I went to a site called meetup. com and I had joined meetup. com when we lived in previous cities and I haven't been there in a while. And part of me was even wondering if it was still there, but it was, and it was very, seemed very engaging.
So I was looking and it was like, Oh, Hey, there's a, there's a coding thing. Well, Okay, and then I was like hmm, I'm not sure if I want to go to that because They might ask me about stuff that I haven't done in a while and you know They [00:01:00] want you to introduce yourself and maybe help people work on projects and stuff and I was like Yeah, but then i'm gonna feel I might feel like a fool.
No And then I saw another one and I was like, hold 
Fawn: on. So you gave up You're like i'm not going to that because I don't want to look like a dumbass 
MATT: because I don't want to I didn't want to use the A S S word. 
Fawn: Sorry. Okay. Okay. 
MATT: And then I found another one and it was like, you know, take a stroll through the countryside and talk about philosophy.
That sounds like fun, right? Well. For some people that sounds like fun. And then I was like, but, but, uh, what if I say something really stupid or what if I, you know, again, look foolish? No. So I was like, maybe not. 
Fawn: So you talked yourself out of it. 
MATT: I talked myself out of it 
Fawn: twice. All right. So it's time to bring up what I [00:02:00] heard a couple months ago from the voiceover community, don't be interesting, be interested. So yeah, I mean we all feel like no matter how much of an expert you may be in something I mean, we'll just speak for ourselves.
We still, we're the type of people that always think, well, you know, I don't know, am I, am I, uh, am I, I don't know, I don't want to look bad or I don't want to say anything because it may seem like I don't know anything or I may look foolish or I may sound foolish. Now we don't live like that. We don't care if we look foolish, but as far as the conversation goes, yeah.
If you're. If it's really important for you to go out there and meet someone, yeah, you have to sound good, right? So you get nervous. You have to sound good. You have to look good. Right. All of that. You [00:03:00] briefly, before we started recording, you briefly asked me a question like, Do the clothes make up man? And I didn't even skip a beat and I said yes, absolutely.
Because one, when I have, I don't know, a shirt or a dress that is so unique for me. Unique, right? Mm hmm. Or I feel good in, or it's like, it, it's not, um, it's not sloppy. Mm hmm. I feel able to handle anything that comes my way. 
MATT: So it's like armor. 
Fawn: It is like armor, but it's like, it just pulls me together. And I've also noticed, like, if you look at people, um, So I was watching a TV show and this woman is, uh, the TV show was Women of the Land with Eva Longoria and she's constantly changing even though they're like going through farmland and like they're walking through [00:04:00] mud and all this.
She is in a bright white outfit, pulled together and I'm looking at that on my own, having a conversation in my own head going, I like that. Because it's, um, despite what's going on in her life, that's her way to feel better. 
MATT: Right. 
Fawn: And if, and also to be taken seriously, or to be taken a certain way, correct?
Mm hmm. And if you go back to Schitt's Creek, the show we loved, they always dressed up, just because they lost all their money and they were living in a motel that was gross, you know? Right. Every day, they, they took pride in. Their clothes and how they presented themselves and remember that scene where Eugene Levy's character loses a button And he you could see him his character.
You could see his life Unraveling and when he finds the button again all is well, you know what i'm [00:05:00] saying? Like it is important So going back and i'm, sorry, you just wanted to say something. Go ahead. No, 
MATT: it's too late now. It's gone 
Fawn: Oh, did you forget it? Yes. Well, I was gonna say How we present ourselves.
Now, I forgot what I was gonna say. There was a point to this. I went off on a tangent with the clothes. But 
MATT: what were we saying? Well, what's interesting is I think that the reason why I'm going through this I'm having this kind of inner dialogue that then turns outer dialogue is because in both situations I think I kind of feel like I'm In for the duration.
So, I'm in for a couple of hours. Whereas, like, case in point, oh my goodness, this week, we have this really obnoxious hat. It has these like jewels on it, fake jewels on it, and it says luck. The hat you got for my birthday. in the house who will wear this thing. 
Fawn: You got that for my birthday. 
MATT: I got that for you and for the house and nobody will wear it but me because [00:06:00] it's all sparkly and it's crazy.
It's crazy. I had zero problems wearing it to the gas station,
but the thought of like real quote unquote strangers It's a little different. It's a little intense and a lot of it is we're dealing with emotion versus Logic, the emotional section of your brain versus the logical section of your brain. Logically speaking, I just won't say anything if, if I'm, you know, concerned it's gonna be foolish.
But emotionally, I'm like, no, I'm gonna blurt out something ridiculous. 
Fawn: Here's the thing, we always think, okay, so we, I'm all over the place, but, they say that when the number one fear, people have is public speaking. And I think that we think when we go out to meet people or we're going to a party that automatically you're going to you put on some pedestal with a mic on you and spotlight for you to give a speech.
No one wants to hear your speech, but [00:07:00] going back to be interested, interested, not interesting. I would say the opposite, but I think the other way around. Be interested, not interesting. So you really don't have to say much, but you could ask questions and let's say someone asked you questions about the coding for example, right?
You're a great coder. You're phenomenally talented However, if someone asks you a question one question, I guarantee you can turn that into a beautiful conversation Well, yeah, of course, so I think it's just feeling the overwhelm of everything Rolled up into one instant and then you feel overwhelmed Overwhelmed, and then you want to back out of it, and I think that's a normal thing to think, but if you just remember that you're not there to give a TED Talk.
MATT: I'm not? 
Fawn: No. And if you do feel that way, if you do feel nervous, remember, be interested not interesting. I mean, [00:08:00] studying martial arts, you always hear about the great masters. They're always asking questions. They're not really giving you a lecture. And it's in the questions where you understand each other or you get a point across even, right?
And so who cares if you ask a question and some people think oh now I'm the alpha and you're the beta because you ask a question because you don't know We don't want to be friends with that anyway, we don't want that in your circle, but the ones that hear your question one everyone wants to be Heard, everyone wants to know show their bit of expertise.
It's not like I'm asking you a question like, Hey, what's the answer to peace in the Middle East? You know what I'm saying? It comes in the little questions like that that would be a superficial conversation. Like you don't have any context. You don't know. You've just met this person. You don't know their background.
You don't know what their history of knowledge is or anything. So to ask a question like [00:09:00] what's the answer to this, you know, it's. and it's, it's not, what's the word I'm looking for? It's not, realistic. It's not, what's the other word I'm looking for? It's not, whatever. It's just, it's not reasonable.
It is not, I can't think of the word you guys. It's, I can't think of the word. 
MATT: You know, just as you're talking, I'm thinking about who is like the original smartest man in the room, the original, the OG from back in before the common era, smartest man in the room was Socrates. He was the smartest man in the room in ancient Greek society, rock on.
And I'm not sure how much further back we go. We, you know, we, we could talk Solomon, but I don't want to, because I want to talk about Socrates. Socrates is fascinating, not only because They made him kill himself, but also because, and that's not what I want to focus on either, [00:10:00] but he was known for asking questions and that's all he did.
And he didn't actually, propose any kind of originality. It's almost like he took what he was given and then he figured out interesting ways to spin it around by asking questions. 
Fawn: And there's a fine line to that because you can ask questions and offend people completely. 
MATT: Exactly. And that would be the wrong way certainly to go if you're just trying to meet people and hang out and have a good time and.
Fawn: Like you wouldn't say, why are you wearing that? Or the question I get. Why are you so short? Are you kidding me? Get that. Get out of here. 
MATT: Oh, I'm doing it on purpose, actually. 
Fawn: Why are you so short? I remember, I've been asked that question since I was a little kid, right? And I remember talking to a friend at school, I'm like, Why are these people asking me that?
And then someone said, you should just ask them, Why Why are you so stupid? Or why are you so nosy? There you go. I like 
MATT: nosy more than I like stupid, [00:11:00] but yes. 
Fawn: This was elementary school. Yeah, 
MATT: I know, I know, I know. Rules are different. The other There's two other points. There's actually two other points I want to make.
Ha ha! One of which is something I learned a long time ago. And often times, it certainly seems, as we go through these podcasts that I go through and I get to, delve into these weird nuggets of knowledge that I've acquired over time. Alan Cooper, computer guy, said the number one priority for anybody using a software application, and this was back in those days, Number one is to not look foolish.
Number two is to get a reasonable amount of work done, but number one was not to look foolish. Do you agree with that? Well, it, it, it means that we're hardwired on such a fundamental level with a fear that we're going to look foolish. 
Fawn: I feel like if you look foolish, you're more human looking and people want to be friends with you.
MATT: And there you go. And that's, that's very, But it 
Fawn: doesn't work in a work environment, does it? 
MATT: [00:12:00] It depends. Because I have zero problems looking foolish when I first start a job because that affords me the opportunity to ask the fundamental questions to throw out. I walk into every single job, I call it, um, ignorant, but really it's, I walk into it without any, I try to walk into it without any assumptions.
And that's a powerful place to be because I'm allowed not to have any assumptions because I just started so why don't you tell me how you consider this business case or this problem or this, whatever, and why don't you help me connect to the company resources I need to connect to because I don't know how. There's a power in that. Now You look foolish if you're six months into it and you're asking really basic questions and I get that but there's a power in it And I very much, live inside of that power for the first few weeks Even though I know it [00:13:00] makes people look at me cross eyed like is this guy serious?
But, 
Fawn: when you look at kids, little kids who are asking these same kinds of questions, it's kind of like the same thing as starting a new job, right? Yes. They're asking the same types of questions. You don't look at that kid like it's foolish. In a way, you're inspired by it. You're like, yeah! Why, why is that?
Why is the sky blue? Or whatever it is they ask, I don't remember now, but they ask really good questions. 
MATT: Right. 
Fawn: But they're very elementary, basic questions. Like when you're starting life, you're like, what is that? 
MATT: Right. 
Fawn: You know, what is that? What is ice cream? What is that? 
MATT: Right. Heh. How was it made? How is ice cream made?
Fawn: That's a 
MATT: very interesting question, right? Which goes back to, 
Fawn: but then it also goes back to, Why are you so short? So, I'll take that back, you know? I don't know, it's just, you know, if you're 
MATT: It's, I think it's about understanding the spirit in which a question's being asked. 
Fawn: Yeah, but also, it's [00:14:00] new, much like being the new person in a company, you're asking questions that are, obvious to the person who's been there for a few years, right?
But, , a person who's been living already on this planet for a while, if you get a question like, why are you so short from, like, a six month old or something, you're like, That's very interesting, right? You know, it's interesting. Did I choose this? But I don't know, you know, there's there's a million ways You can take that conversation.
Yes without taking it personally, right? But I think if the person is older and has been there for a while and the same thing with a company, right? You've been there for a while and you ask a basic question. You should have known from day one, 
MATT: right? 
Fawn: Then it's bad, 
MATT: right? Yeah, very bad And then the other thing to consider is something I learned from my social psychology class at good ol UC Santa Cruz.
And that was one of the, one of my few takeaways, oh my goodness, sometimes I, I, I revel or I wonder at my university education. [00:15:00] Cause it's like, what am I using? What do I remember? What did I do? Because it's been, it's been a minute. But one of the pieces that I pull out is that groups of people, so this is social psychology, so this is looking at groups again, but you are generally perceived to be smarter if you are the one asking the questions, not the person answering them.
Let that settle in. Think on that for a minute. 
Fawn: I have thought about that, and I think it, I don't, I wouldn't choose the word smart. I would choose the word more interested. Well, you're absolutely more compassionte but. More, more open. More, yeah, more open. 
MATT: You're, you're just, you're perceived as being more intellectual.
Fawn: More, more to be a friend because you're open to 
MATT: And, and all of those things are actually true. You don't have, you're not the one 
Fawn: with all the answers, so you're not looking down on anyone else. 
MATT: But, but 
Fawn: You're not closed off. Thinking 
MATT: about it as a [00:16:00] selfish person, my precious, all of a sudden it turns into this whole thing that you think is something to avoid, like, I don't want to look foolish, If you ask questions, guess what?
You're gonna look the opposite of foolish. It's bizarre. 
Fawn: It shows that you're inquisitive, that you care and you're noticing something. So if you ask questions of another person, Mm-Hmm, , you're immediately acknowledging their existence, 
MATT: right? 
Fawn: And you wanna know more. Again, I think it really depends on the tone also.
Mm-Hmm, and, and exactly what the question is. So, why do you have a big nose? Or, why do you What? I Why are you voting that way? 
MATT: Right. 
Fawn: Why do you support this, you know? Instead of like, I really want to know, could you tell me your perspective on your decision? Right. For voting that way. Right. As opposed to, why do you do that?
Do you know [00:17:00] what I'm saying? There's always a spirit. Yes. 
MATT: As a matter of fact, I was talking to somebody who is, on the political spectrum, almost dead opposite me. And I just asked, what have you heard? And I said, Oh, that's interesting. Oh, that's interesting. And oh, that's interesting. And we were able to move on.
And now I have some some things I need to research because these things don't necessarily smell true, but maybe they are. 
Fawn: And that goes back to what we were talking about two weeks ago, is what have you heard? Because , we are hearing whatever we are hearing because we have a filtered world, filtered for our specific, whatever it is we are.
Whether it's financial or cultural, whatever it is that the computer or the, all the algorithms or the culture has put us in this tiny little bubble. So you were not able to hear or see other bubbles out there. 
MATT: Right. Right. We're losing track of zeitgeist. 
Fawn: Mm hmm. Huh. I think that [00:18:00] was a great lesson. So are you gonna go and join any of these meetups?
MATT: Unfortunately, both of those meetups are literally today. But I'm gonna be taking a look and I am gonna be getting back to the podcast. 
Fawn: So you're going to overcome the feeling. 
MATT: I'm gonna give it a whirl. Now, I remember going to a couple of meetups in Colorado that ended up being at a company I later ended up working at and not meeting anybody.
So we'll see how, and these were computer meetups. So I don't know if it's specific to where I was, who I was with and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, but I'm going to give it a good old college try. 
Fawn: And once again, a class is a meetup. I would have never met the life, the life of my love, the love of my life, which is you had I not gone into Aikido.
MATT: Truth. 
Fawn: I would have never, I mean, I was still against Aikido. It just was like wrong. And I remember stepping. I remember I'm in, I'm standing in the [00:19:00] threshold, threshold? 
MATT: Yes. 
Fawn: And I looked at all of you in there, I'm like, I'm not going in there, look at these people. Ew. 
MATT: Mm hmm. 
Fawn: My first reaction was like, oh no.
And I think I actually did step back. And I'm like, oh, no. Let me just go in I'm already here and I was wearing the wrong clothes I was like, I think I was wearing my was I wearing my karate? Gee, I don't remember your shirt on top. I think you were I remember I was wearing a dragon You were 
MATT: wearing like gee pants or something.
Fawn: Yeah, cuz I didn't know 
MATT: What the dress code 
Fawn: right and I didn't want to walk in with a full gee, right? But but I but I looked at all of you. I'm like, these are not my people 
MATT: I wore sweats a t shirt the first like six or eight classes, but 
Fawn: like the judgment So 
MATT: what caused you to go go across the threshold and then I'll share why I did 
Fawn: Honestly, I don't remember Some [00:20:00] force took over me and I actually took one step and went up and stepped on the mat And I think it may have been You, or some other people that immediately, energetically greeted me with a welcoming attitude.
And that, at that point, it's too late. I can't step back outside. Okay, bye. Although I have done that before. Like, okay, bye. No. This is not for me. No, but I felt, I don't know, there was an inner pull that was, that was guiding me that took over, honestly. 
MATT: I gotcha. And 
Fawn: even, it took a few weeks, because I was still like, these people don't even know how to hit.
MATT: Right. 
Fawn: Right? And you guys were telling me not to hit. We don't hit here. And telling 
MATT: you not to hit is like telling people not to breathe. 
Fawn: And I felt like I was a, a preschooler being scolded. We don't hit here. I'm like. No slapping. I'm like, what? But then I [00:21:00] just watched you guys and the way you were so loving and, and the way you were so giving with direction and teaching me whatever it is we were learning there.
Then you got me. Then I was like, wow, these people are amazing and beautiful And really talented martial artists. They can get the job done. Like it didn't look like it once again You know, just just going by looks Sometimes it helps, you know, like like I said what the way you dress up but sometimes I mean Don't really don't judge a book by its cover.
I don't know. I mean sometimes Sometimes you do have to judge by the cover You I think you have to take a holistic view of gathering all this kind of information that comes to you, but you got to go with your heart and you have to decipher what is my heart and what is fear, what is my insecurity and what is my destiny and I think it was my destiny.
I know of course it was my destiny to walk into [00:22:00] that dojo. 
MATT: So 
Fawn: what was yours? What made you go in? 
MATT: If you don't do this, what's going to change? I felt like I needed to change. I felt like I needed to mix things up and I felt like I needed to grow. And this was not even self apparent or self obvious. It was something I hunted, found, and did.
So that's where my head was at. So. You know, I think as human beings, we want to grow and expand. It's, it's wired into our DNA and that's a whole other thing to go over. But, Part of it is that's why boredom exists. It's actually what we're hardwired to want to be better to improve ourselves And etc.
And that's where my head was at and that's why I stepped through the threshold. 
Fawn: It's a question What was your first reaction? What was your first impression when you walked in and [00:23:00] not walked in when you were in the doorway? What was your first reaction? Be honest 
MATT: hippie dojo, 
Fawn: right? right 
MATT: And yet, I felt comforted by that.
I mean, I was looking for something very strict, but I don't think I was looking for something strict. I don't think something strict in me kind of can operate in the same space. 
Fawn: Yeah. Yeah, I think I'm one of the hippiest people, but I came from strict. I came from yelling and chopping wood and like chopping, getting your leg, you're doing roundhouse kicks at a concrete, pole, right? I'm still paying for that. Um, so yeah, looking at, The crew, I was like, Oh, no, they look so sloppy and out of shape, you know, is what I thought you were far from it.
Where's my potato chips? No, but like, I, um, I didn't understand. And that would be [00:24:00] told this by my really talented martial arts friends that were not Aikido people that don't judge a person's, what do you call those muscles in the stomach? Six packs? Mhmm. That the strongest person doesn't even have a six pack.
You don't, you don't, you know, just because they're muscular on the outside doesn't mean they have any strength or control, so anyway, you just, you just don't know. Just go over the opposite. I've been thinking about all the opposites. Do I have I need to go find opposite friends and I'm like, well, what have I been doing the past year?
And I have come across a lot of opposites and become involved in a lot of opposite cultures in the past year. Like mind blowing. So also take inventory of what you have done. You will probably surprise yourself and be delighted. And if not, what did you say, Matt? What will change? What 
MATT: will change if I don't do this?
Fawn: Meaning [00:25:00] if you don't change it, nothing will change. Yeah. Right. Okay. That's it for me. How about you? 
MATT: We're good. 
Fawn: Okay, guys. Love you. Reach out to us anytime you like. 
MATT: Oh, wait. I have one more thing. Oh, I was actually conferring. I was conferring with my image consultant. No, my youngest. And we were, I was asking them how they dealt with their first meet up when we first moved to where we're at now.
And they said they went into it with expectation and with joy. So go in with an intention and joy. 
Fawn: Nice. Okay. Have a beautiful every day. 
MATT: Indeed. 
Fawn: Talk to you later. 
MATT: Be well.