The Humanitarian Clown – Ali Cheff

Down to Clown Friend

In this thought-provoking episode, Fawn and Matt engage in a deep conversation with their guest, Ali Cheff. They delve into the meaning of 'clown' - not just in the traditional sense of humor and entertainment, but also as a metaphor for letting go of ego, embracing vulnerability, and the power of really seeing and hearing others. They also discuss the concept of being 'Down to Clown', essentially being open to laugh at oneself, acknowledging one's strengths and weaknesses and to not take oneself too seriously. Through instances of personal experiences and introspection, they explore the importance of community, connection, and conversation.

#clown, #HumanitarianClowning, #community, #friendship, #connection, #compassion, #conversation #DownToClown #TheArtOfFriendship

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The Humanitarian Clown – Ali Cheff

[00:00:00] Fawn: Here we go. Welcome back, everybody. You always just say, hello. Okay, so I was working at a lab. This was a very long time ago. Photo lab, and we did prints and everything for people. And we worked so hard. It was just three of us. There was a manager and two of us. And we ran the whole place. One day, there was a mistake.

[00:00:26] Fawn: Did I tell you this story, Matt? I don't think so. This was in San Francisco a very, very long time ago. I mean, especially since we printed stuff from negatives. And so, we were like Always on the go, we took our job very seriously because we were all photographers, we were all seriously studying. Other countries listening to us out there, I don't know what you call it.

[00:00:48] Fawn: We call it college, university level. Major studying of photography was happening. So we were serious about our craft. But one day, there was a mistake. And one of our clients, I don't remember how it happened, I think I spoke with her first. But she said, What are you clowns doing there? You're just a bunch of clowns.

[00:01:11] Fawn: Oh dear. And it just escalated, and I was trying to calm her down because we were trying to rectify the situation. And what happened was, if I remember clearly, the manager, and we were all friends, the three of us. We were tight. So the manager takes the prince over to this person's office, and he comes back.

[00:01:31] Fawn: He comes back, and he's like, I guess we're just a bunch of clowns. That's all she kept repeating is you clowns. What are you clowns doing? Just a bunch of clowns and I took such offense to it But my friend who's the manager of this place who was a little bit older than we were he he just Treated it with treated the whole word Which I want to get into because I looked up the etymology of Clown.

[00:02:03] Fawn: Oh dear. He came back and he transformed it for us. So because we were a lab, we also did passport photos. So we got whole clown outfits and we did our own so you could still see like it was me but as a clown, we all did that. And we had passport photos of ourselves as clowns. And so from that day forward, we were clowns.

[00:02:29] Fawn: And I don't know what it is about the clown, but You developed the phrase, uh, I

[00:02:34] MATT: stole it from my buddy, Mario. Did you really introduced it to me?

[00:02:37] Fawn: Matt always says, is this person like to be our friend, you have to be down to clown. Like that phrase, are you down to clown basically means are you willing to put ego and any kind of superfluous, super whatever it is, superfluous.

[00:02:54] Fawn: What do you call it? You just set it aside and have fun. How do you call it? Well, I

[00:02:59] MATT: would say that. Typically, a person who is quote unquote down to clown is somebody who knows themselves. They know their strengths, they know their weaknesses, and they're okay with looking foolish on some level, right? Or

[00:03:13] Fawn: having maybe the possibility of perhaps looking not perfect and sabiness of.

[00:03:21] Fawn: The beauty of everything is the wabi

[00:03:24] MATT: sabi, right? The wabi sabi and also just the ability to laugh at yourself, frankly, is a big part of it to me.

[00:03:31] Fawn: So everybody, I looked up clown. 1560s is when they think it first shows up. And it's defined as a man of rustic or coarse manners. A bore? A bore? A bore? Oh, dear.

[00:03:46] MATT: What is that?

[00:03:47] ALI: What's a boring person. No,

[00:03:48] Fawn: no, not a bore. Like a B O O R. Yeah,

[00:03:51] MATT: that's a boring person. Really? Oh,

[00:03:53] Fawn: he's such a bore. And peasant. It means peasant. Ooh, yes. So then, it goes on to say, so this is etymology. com. Yes, yes. All right. They were saying basically, I think, they really don't know where it comes from, but they were saying it's a word of obscure origin.

[00:04:09] Fawn: The original form and pronunciation are uncertain, it says, and they were saying perhaps it's from Scandinavian dialect. Like if we compare Icelandic, which is K L U N N I, Kluny, is that how you say it? Hm. That it means clumsy, boorish fellow. Swedish is K H U N S. It means a hard knob, a clumsy fellow. And then there's Danish, K L U N T.

[00:04:45] Fawn: K L U N T. A log, block, or in low German, which I don't know what low German means. It's a language. Yeah. Low German?

[00:04:55] MATT: I think it's, I think it's ancient and I think it was either speak, spoken in the lowlands of Germany or it's a class

[00:05:02] Fawn: thing. I'm not sure. Okay. So basically it was saying all these pretty much have the same kind of meaning.

[00:05:07] Fawn: And then it says OED describes, I don't know what OED means. Do you know? But anyway, I'm just repeating what it says. It says O E D describes it as, like, a word originally, Clot. Lump. Which, like these words themselves, has been applied in various languages to a clumsy boar. Allout. What's allout? Do you know what allout is?

[00:05:34] MATT: Allout is generally, I think, referring to a person's intellect and or, uh, kind of physical

[00:05:41] Fawn: coordination. You know, it's interesting because I was with And we were talking about how there are people out there that are only friends with you if you are lower than them.

[00:05:52] MATT: Yes, yes, there's a whole high low status, absolutely.

[00:05:56] Fawn: We talk about this all

[00:05:57] MATT: the time, right? And it can be a hard thing when somebody who you just want to be friends with who, in point of fact, you're indeed in a different status level than them. tries to always keep you

[00:06:09] Fawn: down. Well, it's interesting because our conversation today, if you just bear with me, guys, we have so much going on.

[00:06:16] Fawn: I have a very special treat for you. We have a special treat for you today, but anyway, just going back to the etymology and wrapping that up. So if you go back to, so I'm going

[00:06:25] ALI: to intervene for a second. You're talking about clowns, right? And you're talking about a particular, you're talking about the word clown, right?

[00:06:33] ALI: But like the form of clown, I mean, like you look at the Pueblos, uh, they had clowns like Cosa is a clown and you've got. Um, different words in different languages for clown. So even though the word clown is used for what a lot of us consider a clown today, they're payasos in South America. And so the, and when you say like a lump, it's like a lump of clay.

[00:07:01] ALI: It's many, many, many, many, many, many, many possibilities. And they're also, in a lot of cultures, considered the go between between The physical world, outside of the physical world. And so if you could even say that maybe somewhat clowns are to tap into the essence between our souls and our, our bodies, or, you know, that would be a higher way of saying it.

[00:07:23] ALI: But you could also say that being not only just like status, but breaking down that there is no status. You might say that the clown's existence is for. And if we just focus on the one word, clown, I think that clown is more of to embody a bunch of things. So there's other words for clown, you know, not just what's used in the English language these days.

[00:07:46] ALI: It's

[00:07:46] Fawn: fascinating. And that's exactly why I wanted to have a show on the clown because it's deep. And I didn't realize how deep it truly is. I mean, we did because we have these conversations all the time along the same vein, but You, Ali, you, oh, I'm so glad you're here so we can talk about this. I love what you just said.

[00:08:08] Fawn: Everybody, I want you to meet your new friend. For those of you who don't know, Ali Sheff, here is your new friend. Ali Sheff. Hi. Hello.

[00:08:17] ALI: Yay!

[00:08:18] Fawn: So, Ali, it's interesting how we all meet each other. I met Ali through the voiceover network. Ali is an amazing voiceover actor. An actor has played and worked in many different areas of storytelling.

[00:08:35] Fawn: Ali is also a humanitarian clown. How fascinating is that? Yeah. Just

[00:08:43] MATT: ponder that for a second, just put

[00:08:45] ALI: those two

[00:08:45] Fawn: words together. Not only an amazing actor, voiceover actor, amazing storyteller, multifaceted. I mean. Ali's resume is full. I've known Ali for a couple years now. I've been watching Ali in the vocal booth through Zoom, and I am amazed.

[00:09:05] Fawn: And I want to know more about the humanitarian clown and how, how tools that Ali shares is really key to friendship. It gives the whole meaning of, are you down to clown? a whole other meeting. So welcome to the show, Ali. Thank you so much for being here. How did you start doing this? And can we go down the list of everything that you do to connect with people?

[00:09:34] Fawn: Like, for example, I know you do several things. I'm just going to list a few here.

[00:09:40] ALI: Okay.

[00:09:41] Fawn: But you're able to let, you describe it as you let the audience decide the game, your audience, meaning whoever's in front of you, correct?

[00:09:50] ALI: Yeah. Um, and I, that's, that's pretty much true. I mean, if you go to the circus, like even if you go to the circus and you watch a clown or you even watch Cirque du Soleil, the clown, even if it's a, a staged performance, like a set routine, the clown always checks in with the audience.

[00:10:09] ALI: There's always a pause, and they always ask if they should, should I touch the button? They wait. Should I touch the button? Okay, I'm gonna wait. Oh, should I touch the button? Oh, you are? You do want me to touch the button. Okay, I'll touch the button. You know, there's, uh, I tripped in, you know, a pratfall or something like that.

[00:10:28] ALI: I'm just kind of going with like, uh, what people are most familiar with, with clowning. And so we might fall. They're still checking in with the audience. So in that sense, it's, it's always the same for every clown. There's always a check in in the audience. It's not, I'm telling you what's funny. I'm checking in.

[00:10:47] ALI: Is this funny for you? Oh, maybe I'll just, I'll just toss it away. It wasn't funny enough. I'm going to walk away and maybe then I'll trip. Oh, that was funny. Oh, okay. Okay. I get where you, so it's always a conversation with your audience and your audience always has control of the situation. So with.

[00:11:02] ALI: Humanitarian clowning. I like using my friend Victor's story because I think it's really beautiful. Before I officially went on my first clowning endeavor, I met up with a clown that a friend of mine had said, Oh, meet up with Victor. And so we were chatting and he was talking about his first clowning experience, which was.

[00:11:22] ALI: It's going to a hospital, going with a senior clown, going into a children's ward of terminally ill children and being like, I'm going to be so funny. I'm going to make these kids laugh. I'm, yeah, I'm just going to do so good. I got this. I got this. And I'm going in and one of the kids rejecting him immediately being like, I don't want him.

[00:11:44] ALI: I don't want him in here. Just go away. I don't want you here. And the senior clown's saying to him, to Victor, uh, Hey, just go outside. And Victor was just feeling completely rejected. Like, he's like, I'm a failure. I'm a terrible clown. All these like negative thoughts about that. But the senior clown's like, and I want you to wait, you know, wait about a minute.

[00:12:04] ALI: And then I want you to come back in. And then if the kid tells you to go out, go out. But then come back in. And so. What that did was suddenly it became a game because when he came in, the kid sent him out, he went out and then he kind of peeked in again and the kid sent him out and then it was, the control was with the audience, right?

[00:12:26] ALI: The kid was the audience and so then it was a great game and the kid was laughing and the kid was very embracive, embraced Victor a great deal and then they moved on to another game like. You know, kids do sometimes, sometimes you can like, I mean, I've been in a hospital where I've done like a million Pratt falls and I'm like, Oh, I am sore.

[00:12:46] ALI: I hope I don't have to fall again. But it's that suddenly the audience has control and there's a sense of ease that takes place because there's an opening of not feeling vulnerable in a particular way where you feel like you might get attacked or you might feel. Or, for, with humanitarian clowning, a lot of times you're in environments where everyone that you're interacting with doesn't have control.

[00:13:15] ALI: And they're constantly feeling vulnerable, and they're constantly feeling like they have to have all their walls and their defenses up because they don't know if they get to leave. They don't know when they're gonna die. They, or maybe they do know when they're gonna die, and everybody's walking around them as if they're fragile and they are something.

[00:13:40] ALI: They're like an object, you know, they're, they're, they are the identity of their illness or the, the identity of their sentencing or their, the identity of their mental health thing versus actually interacting with the other person. And so a lot of times giving. The ownership of the game, which is what clowning is, is giving the ownership to the audience and not just being like, okay, make something, that kind of pressure, like create something, it's, oh, I'm going to dialogue with you, it's always a dialogue with your audience, even if, if it's pratfalls, if it's pratfalls, or if it's singing a song to them, it's always checking in, so it's not like, I'm going to sing this beautiful song to you and you're going to enjoy it, it's like, Seeing the person as you sing and pausing if you need to, because they're crying or weeping and they're enjoying it, or maybe they're turning away and you want to just give them that space.

[00:14:42] ALI: It's always a dialogue and it's not about being funny. It's about playing and being present. So um, yeah, with, with humanitarian clowning and the audience it, and with all clowning, it really is about having. a play date with, with like traditional theater and stuff. Like maybe you might interact or ask the audience and they're like, Oh, I don't know.

[00:15:09] ALI: I don't know. But with clowning, I think that pressure is gone a lot of times because it's not a demand. It's an invitation, which is a little bit different because I've definitely been in some like immersive theater where I'm like prodding the audience to do something. I'm poking them. I'm saying like, come, come give me something.

[00:15:29] ALI: Or like, you know, whereas with clowning, it's just. Kind of like being open to their suggestion. Oh, do you have a suggestion? Oh, what about this? Do you want to do this? You know, it's like, it's like when you're playing as a little kid. And that's really what a clown is. The clown doesn't really have an ego.

[00:15:48] ALI: And when it does have an ego, it's presented. It immediately gets thwarted, right? Like that's one of the fun things about when you watch a clown do something and they fall and they're silly. It's to point out that existing in status is a made up thing. And if you put too much investment in your identity being a label, a subject,

[00:16:10] Fawn: a,

[00:16:12] ALI: uh, not a lapel, what am I thinking of?

[00:16:14] ALI: Like, like a medal or my, I'm a, like, I'm a vegan, right? If I am like, I am a vegan and that is my existence, that is really hard. And that is really stressful. And that takes a lot of effort and a lot of work to be like my whole identity is this one thing. Mm hmm. Absolutely. Then I'm constantly going around self absorbed, being like, how am I looking like a vegan?

[00:16:39] ALI: I'll, a really great example I thought of actually right before this this morning was my dog had to go to the bathroom and I wanted to take him out. And I was, I was, I was feeling, I just jumped out of the shower. I was like, I've got this podcast. I need to take the dog out. And I was putting on my, lacing my shoes and I thought.

[00:16:56] ALI: Wow, this is a show right now. I am putting on a show to appear that I'm urgently, for my dog, to look like I'm busy and I'm hurried and I'm rushed, whereas the most effective way is to be lasered focused on tying my shoes. If I'm focused on tying my shoes, I'm playing even the game of life, right? I'm, I am, I have the objective to take him outside and I'm honing in on that.

[00:17:21] ALI: And when you're playing as a clown, you're honing in on listening. And you're playing the game, but you're really listening. You're not thinking, am I funny? Do they like me? None of those things, those kind of like identity things that we think are so important and we put so much effort and we spend years on our whole lives being like, I'm a voice actor, I'm an actor.

[00:17:43] ALI: I think there's power in having an identity and claiming. what it is you want to pursue, but at the same time is not taking ourselves too seriously. I mean, that's the beauty of the clown. It's like, Oh yeah, I get to breathe. I don't have to hold up this identity or what other people are labeling me as, or what I know myself to be.

[00:18:01] ALI: I got a little long winded. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm tangenting. I love this. I do. I just kind of like go around there. But I don't know if that answered your question or not.

[00:18:12] MATT: Oh my goodness. Ali. Hopefully, hopefully it's in there somewhere, but I totally agree with you though. Um, You know, today I happen to, like, rarity, I'm wearing a shirt that actually has a logo on it.

[00:18:25] MATT: Oh my goodness. Oh yeah, uh huh. I don't do that. I don't like to do that because it feels like you have to defend that all day. Mm hmm. You know, whatever, whatever that thing is on your shirt, if it's a Nike swoop, you know, you're a Nike person. I mean, oh my god, that's exhausting to me. Yeah. I don't do that.

[00:18:41] MATT: I, I just want to be. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:44] ALI: Yeah. And also though, but to be aware of ourselves when that is also something that we resist, like the anti something too, being too much of an identity too, you know, yeah. Being okay with, Oh, I wore a logo today. Yeah. I wore a logo today. You know, it's not a big deal. I can, I can say, yeah, I wore a logo today or I didn't wear a logo, but yeah, getting hooked up on that where we just don't.

[00:19:09] ALI: We're not really being with people, which is such a habit. You know, I, I fall into it all the time. I mean, none of us are perfect. I think also the idea that, um, I mean, I love failure. Like my goal last year was to fail a lot and to really embrace. I'd heard someone say, and I'm sure a lot of people have heard this, but I know Jason near white said to me that failure is the first attempt in learning.

[00:19:33] ALI: And I was like, Oh, that's a great way of thinking of it. But it's also like, it's the process of living, right, is pain and so much avoidance of pain versus learning how to navigate and be curious and bold when things are uncomfortable, you know, and explore them, which I, you know, you just mentioning the labels, what is making me think about how.

[00:19:53] ALI: Uh, just those things that make me uncomfortable. Like why are they making me uncomfortable? Huh? I wonder. Like I started really like every time I stubbed my toe or whatever, or like I cut, sorry, it's the middle finger, but I'm holding my finger up to the camera to show you this gash in my hand. I started being like, wow, this still hurts.

[00:20:12] ALI: Why does it hurt? Hmm. Ooh. It feels a little tingly. It feels a little, Oh, it also feels a little bit. Uh, like Bernie, like you start like picking away at like dissecting those feelings and stuff. I mean, you know, it's such a, I think it's so fun, right? Like, like you felt resistant of a label or that you felt you needed to defend a label.

[00:20:34] ALI: Like, Oh, why did you feel you needed to defend it? Did you immediately think people were going to criticize you? Is it your network of friends that really are anti label and you know, because I think every spectrum of like, no matter what stance we have on something, there's a real gripping to it. It's that like attention that's created in our bodies versus relaxing and being like, Oh.

[00:20:57] ALI: I completely disagree with you, but where's your perspective? I hadn't thought about that, you know?

[00:21:04] MATT: Yeah, yeah. I would definitely say Americans are having a very difficult time when we disagree with one another. Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm, oh my goodness. Yeah. I'm hanging out, I'm hanging out at the gas station having coffee in the mornings now with a group of people at a gas station who

[00:21:22] ALI: are all very, I've never heard of that before.

[00:21:24] ALI: They're

[00:21:24] MATT: all very different than me. Yeah. And every once in a while I notice I step too far and they don't like it. They really don't like it. Like when I get super philosophical or I start talking about different things I'm thinking about maybe for the show and just bouncing ideas around. Yeah. They want to tell their stories, get their chuckles, say hello to everybody who comes in because they know everybody who comes in and move on.

[00:21:50] ALI: Well, you know though, that convert, that alone though is such a really beautiful thing When we know some people, even, even if it's a dismissive thing sometimes, which is like, Oh, that's just Johnny. Well, even, even that there's an opening. When you have that familiarity, you know, where you're having a conversation consistently, they're still a little bit more open to you and hear a little bit of what you're saying.

[00:22:20] ALI: And it might even resonate with their day just a little bit because they know you and you're familiar. I think the more we have even those awkward conversations where we don't feel like we're necessarily heard, but we continue. To have a little bit of space to share with one another, I think it really does assist in us hearing people outside of it, even if, even if, for instance, like, I hear what someone's saying, but they're so familiar at the same time, this is often with family, you know, where I'm like, I hear what you're saying, but I just, I'm not gonna.

[00:22:57] ALI: I'm not budging. But then later I hear somebody else say it, and I'm more open to that person than I probably would have been. Yes. Had I not had a conversation with the familiar person. Absolutely.

[00:23:08] MATT: Yeah, no, you're totally opening doors. Things like, you know, slowly but surely you get to know one another and you know things about them.

[00:23:17] MATT: And we happen to be vegan too. Huzzah. Yeah. So, of course, I get to see pictures of the deer they shot. And I have to, like, not be completely like, oh my God, but be like, yeah, I know I heard congratulations. I heard this about it. I heard that everybody was talking about it because it's a big deal to him. And I realized that and I want to respect his space and I, I don't want to dismiss it because then we'll never talk.

[00:23:46] ALI: Yeah, sure. Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. That is always, that's always, yeah, that's tricky when you're looking at those things and you're like, wow, this is not my space. Yeah. Right. I, I feel like constantly, constantly in those spaces and that, yeah, the beauty of finding, you know, I sometimes wonder is, or I know my own ego is, my reaction, I sometimes get concerned about am I, am I misrepresenting myself, or am I in the divine, you know, game of life saying, or disregarding.

[00:24:28] ALI: Uh, my stance by saying, Oh, I, you know, I, I like how you said, I see why you're excited about this or a congratulations on something that means something to you, right? Like exactly. Finding out how we can be supportive. And also, I guess for me anyway, checking myself where am I, like I was talking about putting on this, I'm just doing this.

[00:24:49] ALI: I was just doing the show for my dog, right? Like look how anxious I am tying my shoes versus I'm tying my shoes. I hear you. I'm making sure, you know, I'm not even thinking about that. I'm just thinking tie shoes, next step, next steps, next step. Just like you were saying about talking to the person is like, am I putting on a show by being like, I'm not going to look at this?

[00:25:10] ALI: Or am I putting on a, or am I just saying, Hmm, thank you for gifting your life. And, uh, dear, in my head, you know what I mean? Like, thank you for gifting your life and, and being here in this world. And this person was gifted such a celebration and such a, a beautiful moment from your life. So thank you. You know what I mean?

[00:25:31] ALI: Like kind of figuring out how to connect with the situation and obviously not. Like, clearly, if there's something that seems like you need to speak up, obviously, speak up. Right. I just want you and I to be clear, um, but yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. You make me think about compassion and the thing that I feel like is one of the things is we are a community.

[00:25:59] ALI: Right. Well,

[00:26:00] MATT: you would think, yes, indeed. And people think that intellectually. But sometimes I wonder if people have an understanding of community that doesn't agree with what I have to say 100%. Sure. You know, that's, that's one of those really interesting, huge problems right now that, you know, we need to connect, as you said, more about and really try and have conversations with people who aren't just like us.

[00:26:30] ALI: Well, and you know, you mentioned something, I can't remember if it was in the beginning or before we started recording, but the, um, the importance of words and one of the things that I have a real, this is like, this is like, okay, it's going to be a little bit of my campaign, but I am on this campaign of like, I do not like the word politically correct, I always like to think of instead of community compassion, because for instance, someone I care about a lot kind of gripes, he's extremely sensitive and really cares about not harming other people.

[00:27:08] ALI: But when he hears the word politically correct, or he he'll really just like dig in there, like, why are there, everything's got to be politically correct. I think it's like more destructive. I think that word immediately removes the purpose. Of that kind of speech, right? If you're thinking about being community compassionate, you're looking at that person and you're like, I'd like them to feel lovely.

[00:27:32] ALI: I would like them to feel safe. Then our curbing of our language becomes a consideration. And then our learning, for instance, of pronouns or our learning of maybe a new name or whatever it might be. becomes an act of learning, an act of, um, like when you're talking to a little kid and they're like, well, I don't like that.

[00:27:57] ALI: And you're like, oh, well, why don't you like it? That is how changing how we communicate with each other of not using words that. Harm. I feel like, well, when you say politically correct, it's immediately saying it's not something I believe I'm saying this because it meets as if I'm going to campaign or be in a political leader and immediately implying that everything spoken is a lie, right?

[00:28:27] ALI: Like it's not. I don't really believe it. I'm just saying it because I'm supposed to. And that Hmm. Is empty to me, like I get we're faking it till you make it where you say like, you know, creating a landscape, but if we care about what we're saying and we care about the, the lives in front of us, I feel like I just don't like politically correct.

[00:28:50] ALI: And I really don't like that the way that word is used. I think it dehumanizes the way a lot of language others us and separates us. And I think it also prevents a lot of dialogue. Like we were saying about. Discomfort in conversations that people aren't like you, you know, I think it swings all the time by popular, like communities, the subset communities of like, this is acceptable language, but this is an acceptable language and not having a conversation because one side might use a language that is offensive to another side consistently, but because maybe they're In the majority at that time, their negative language is accepted, or they're not hearing themselves use language towards another group.

[00:29:44] ALI: That's harmful or hurting them. You know, like, I feel like this. I feel like I'm going for CC. Let's all just be CC community compassionate. That is my, my way on feeling like speech and interacting with people.

[00:30:00] Fawn: Isn't it really important? It is. Um, isn't it though, basically coming down to one thing, isn't it really ultimately the fear of failure, the fear of not being perfect.

[00:30:12] Fawn: And, and if you think about it, just walking is a constant motion of perpetual about to fail because the act of walking, taking one step towards another is really tripping. So you're catching yourself on the next. from yoga, but like you're catching yourself and you're able to make it to the next step.

[00:30:33] Fawn: But if you are so fearful of doing the wrong thing, Matt always calls it the centipedes dilemma, because if you really stop and like think about it, then you're going to trip. Like, Oh, how do I move all these hundreds of feet? You know? Um, so I think that's why, that's why. Politically correct. It shouldn't be okay.

[00:30:55] Fawn: Like I totally agree with you. It's just well. No, I'm just saying the word No, no, you know, like it's it's all about perfection It's all about the way you look the way you sound you're afraid to be an outcast You're afraid that you'll be targeted or you'll be wrong That's part of I think the beauty of appearing like a

[00:31:13] MATT: clown.

[00:31:13] MATT: Absolutely to rewind. First time I heard politically correct was at UC Santa Cruz and I swear to goodness, that's where the term was born. I swear to goodness because I'd never ever, ever, ever heard it before and everybody was saying it there. So maybe it was San Francisco, Berkeley on down to Santa Cruz, but my God.

[00:31:33] MATT: So I have a whole different interpretation of it because I learned it before there was any weight on it. And like. Even the word decimate how decimate doesn't mean what it used to mean back in old Greek times It means something

[00:31:46] Fawn: different again explaining it to everybody else, especially who don't speak English what decimate really

[00:31:51] MATT: means Decimate is one out of ten, and this is because something happened, wartime, the Greek populace, and they killed one out of every ten people.

[00:32:03] MATT: That was the punishment. But it's turned into ten percent get to live. And it's just evolution of words, and people use words maybe they don't 100 percent understand, et cetera, et cetera. But word meanings change over time, and that's all that that kind of illustrates, and so even politically correct.

[00:32:22] MATT: Things, I think the terminology has morphed over time to a point where it's not usable anymore. And I'm not gonna argue that anymore, but I honestly, and here's the sad part. So will community compassion if everybody uses it. It'll get misused, too. It's just, it's just the nature of language and the whole kind of soundbite mentality that we have.

[00:32:43] MATT: You know, oh my god, if I put together three words that sound terrible, it doesn't matter if I surround it with five pages that don't sound terrible. You're gonna pick out those three words and I forever said. Something, something, something.

[00:32:55] Fawn: So Matt, what did politically correct mean in Santa Cruz way

[00:32:58] MATT: back then?

[00:32:58] MATT: It was all very liberal. It was like, you were as liberal as you could possibly be,

[00:33:04] Fawn: period. Isn't that what that means right now?

[00:33:06] MATT: It, it means something very similar now, but people are wielding it like a weapon and, and they're wielding it with disdain and nobody wielded it with. Disdain, they're saying you're being very politically correct right now.

[00:33:17] MATT: PC. In a way that it was like, we don't necessarily believe this is your true nature.

[00:33:23] Fawn: It also goes to like, I know this is totally going off topic, but like, politically correct is PC. And remember when there was a war between PCs and Macs? Firmly on the side of the PC. Yeah, Matt's a programmer. He hates the Mac.

[00:33:38] Fawn: Sorry, guys. And so like, if we, if a Mac ever showed up. Yeah, weaponizing

[00:33:43] ALI: of language is very, very true. And I, yeah, I hear you on that for sure. I study with a behavioral scientist and talking to her about just kind of like, the, the tells of politicians and stuff and like the learning, you know, of, um, I think it's just, I, Yeah, I mean, I, I, I try to use the, even, you're right.

[00:34:04] ALI: Yeah, it can be weaponized for sure. I think anytime I'm thinking about politics, I think politics in general has been separated from humanity in a lot of ways. You know what I mean? Yes, yeah, absolutely. Like, for instance, politics, politicians are, you know, we're the boss, right? Like, we the people are the boss of the politicians, but it never feels that way.

[00:34:23] ALI: No, right, right. It's such a bizarre thing.

[00:34:28] MATT: They asked a politician what, yeah, I remember hearing about this, but they asked a politician what's the most important thing you have to do, and the guy said, get re elected, not Help my people in my district, not elevate discord, discord, yes, but elevate discussion is what they should have said, you know, and, you know, trying to do right by my people knows to get reelected.

[00:34:56] MATT: So all of a sudden, it doesn't matter if your district is pro life or pro choice, then all of a sudden, miraculously, you are now too, because heaven forbid you want to get reelected. It's not about. Okay,

[00:35:09] Fawn: everybody, let's let's

[00:35:15] Fawn: This is precisely about connecting with people because a politician is kind of like most of society right now because a politician Is only wanting to express what they want to express to you, and they're not interested in seeing you or hearing your point of view because they feel like I have to say this.

[00:35:37] Fawn: I have to get this point across. And I think that that's one of the points of friendship in the art of friendship that's lost is that because we haven't been communicating, we haven't been together. We've been so split up from the very beginning in various different ways from the way the family is structured, a baby's born, you put it in daycare, a person gets old, you put them in daycare, you know, you go to work, you're tired, you're there's no connection anymore.

[00:36:04] Fawn: And I think it's the same way that there's no capacity. For seeing the other person, hearing the other person, because you're so busy, which is a thing when we started our podcast, that was that, to me, that's the F you word, the four letter word busy. If someone says I'm busy, I'm like, basically, they're giving me the middle finger.

[00:36:24] Fawn: They're saying, instead of saying, I'm tired, I want to stay home. I'm busy, you know, just it's rude to me. So I think because we're so busy all the time, that we don't have the capacity to truly See the other person because all we have is the ability to muster enough power to say what we need to say because we are not seen.

[00:36:47] Fawn: We're not heard. We're not anything. And so that's rampant in our culture. And I one of the questions I wanted to ask you, Ali. I mean, I have a list here, which actually you perfectly like answered everything on my list. I was like, should I just read the whole list of like all the questions because they were already answered.

[00:37:08] Fawn: But like one is how do you only have the capacity or create the capacity within yourself to really see someone or to hear someone because you have to have pulled it all together for yourself to be able to set everything aside. To really hear and look at someone and hear exactly what they're telling you, even if it's in a micro gesture, you know what I'm saying?

[00:37:33] Fawn: Yeah,

[00:37:33] ALI: and I want to be very, I also want to like kind of say this is that, um, the capacity for that is sometimes, and this is where I went off on the community compassion thing is like understanding that because we're a community, we might not be able to hold the space always. And we have to allow for other members in the world community to hold that space.

[00:37:58] ALI: Right? So if there's somebody that has harmed you, like there are some people in my life that have just terrible things have done. And I don't have the capacity. To be in that space with them. Did you say capacity? Capacity.

[00:38:14] Fawn: Oh my gosh. Hold on a second. I think we have a new word. I think we should. We're always creating new words.

[00:38:19] Fawn: Compassity. It's compassion and capacity combined. I think, capacity. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

[00:38:26] ALI: Yeah. So, um, just kind of like, I, for instance, I am really glad that their parents, uh, were there for them to give them love and space while. I needed to remove them from my life, right? So I always am hoping for people to have and wishing for all of us to kind of step in where we can when it's not, um, Not in our space for safety for ourselves to be in that compassionate place, because sometimes it is horrific, sometimes it is dangerous, and we need to not be in that space, but to have.

[00:39:16] ALI: That, that life still receive compassion and acknowledgement and space, I think is really, really important. So I want to kind of preface what I'm about to say with that because I struggle constantly with my immediate family in this area, right? Like for me to be in that space of really listening and really seeing them, there's a lot of my ego in that space.

[00:39:43] ALI: So much of my ego because I, I'm like, Oh, this is where I struggle and it's, it's because of this with you and you and you, you know, there's all this, there's all these labels, more labels than if I interact with another person outside of that. Right. So, uh, It's a constant journey of reflecting on a situation and coming back to it and being like, Oh, this is where I was at.

[00:40:06] ALI: And then also realizing that sometimes my stepping away and being like, I'm just going to be listening to you. I catch them the, the annoyance because we're in a conflict. Now, if I'm going into play with others outside of my family and so, cause this is my, I'm constantly working on that, right? I'm constantly working on stepping back, trying to really listen.

[00:40:29] ALI: What is it that they fear? And a lot of times my emotions are spiked and I don't, I just am like, Like a, a, a empty rubber wall or something where they're like more frustrated, but then I step away and I'm like, okay, why are they frustrated? What kind of feelings are they feeling right now? You know? So with the interactions daily life that happens all the time.

[00:40:52] ALI: And I just have to keep revisiting the discomfort and being bold and curious about my discomfort, their discomfort, and trying to be more compassionate in how I communicate. So clowning has really Fed into that and acting, analyzing humanity all the time, realizing that we are all capable of horrendous, horrific things.

[00:41:16] ALI: And we are all capable of beautiful love and being shameless with our love and reaching out a hand to somebody that needs it, to listening when it's uncomfortable, to seeing somebody. At their worst and not deciding that, what that means, but just seeing them and opening oneself up to be present. So with clowning, one of the things that, uh, opening oneself to listen is focusing so much on the other person, not, and, and kind of, you'll record it all.

[00:41:55] ALI: You'll record the fact that the baby's going to die. It probably won't make it through the week. You might be recording, oh, this person murdered somebody. You might be recording that in your head, or you might be recording, oh, this person, who I've been seeing for the last eight years, their parent, their family is not coming to get them tomorrow.

[00:42:17] ALI: And you've had that conversation a million times, and you're seeing all these things. Now, this is me recording it, but when I'm in the moment with that person, then I am only paying attention. I'm paying attention to them, I'm paying attention to their smile, I'm paying attention to their alive eyes, you know, if they can see, where they might be, you can see them think, oh, like ideas playing in their head, and you're, you're kind of like, oh, they're engaged, should I go over here, and, and just not expecting, not looking to be funny again, not looking to be, not thinking about how they're affecting you, But just thinking about each step, what's in front of me, what do they, what are they pointing at?

[00:43:08] ALI: Oh, they're pointing at there. I'm going to look over there. I'm going to look back at them. I'm going to check in. You're always checking in. That's the other thing, like the clown of checking in. If they direct me somewhere, I'm going to look over there. And then I'm going to check back in. And then I'm going to go.

[00:43:19] ALI: You know, so, it's, I think it's just going in with the intention that you want to give them freedom. Like freedom and play and space and, and going in and thinking, I'm just here to be with you. I mean, that's really what it is. It's like, I'm just here with you and I will, I'm, I'm, I, I, I'm excited about being here with you.

[00:43:45] ALI: I'm curious about being here with you. And I want to, uh, I want to see the world with you. You know, like when you hold hands with somebody or you hold hands with your friend, this is, this is what I'd say. It's like being excited to share a sunset with a friend, right? Life is that sunset, or life is that beautiful view, and when you go into a prison, and you're looking at a bunch of these beautiful lives, you want to share that sunset, or you want to share a song, you want to play the game, and the game is that, like, you want They're going to lead you and they're going to show you their sunset, right?

[00:44:20] ALI: You're going to go look at the view with them. When someone's really excited about sharing you their, their, the creation they've made. And what's really fun is you get to make the creation with them. So thinking back to my friend, Victor's story is there's no objective other than being with that person.

[00:44:39] ALI: And you cannot fail as long as you're present with that person. And you're not thinking about how you look if you're doing it right. Because then you're not with the person anymore, you know, and I think a lot of times when we're in a conversation, I mean, even with you guys just now, right? There was something that sparked an idea and I was like, Oh, I got to say that.

[00:44:58] ALI: I got to say that idea. And I was distracted from being present for a moment. Right? So reeling back in and being like, Oh, wait, let me, let me like really listen. Oh, okay. Do I think I understand this? Oh, really listen. Oh, stop thinking about whether I think I understand it or not. Just really, really like zero in, take that space, not try to, like you said, being busy, right?

[00:45:20] ALI: Right. A lot of times we feel like we have to say something to fill the space versus like, I tell you, sometimes you sit with somebody and it's just silence. You go somewhere and you just sit with somebody and it's complete silence, you know, sometimes as a clown and, and realizing that sometimes our act of play, our act of being and listening and like really there is not doing anything, you know, just, just that hang time, you know, you're in a hang time with that person.

[00:45:53] ALI: And that's kind of euphoric. Because there's just no, again, you're giving that, yeah, you're giving no expectation to them. They don't have to do anything either. They don't have to satisfy an expectation. You're comfortably being with them. Right. And if you're not going, what should I do right now? When you're sitting with them, then they don't have that pressure or that awkwardness of feeling like they need to say anything either or do anything, you know, and that is insanely liberating.

[00:46:28] ALI: It's so liberating, and everybody, it doesn't matter if you're super wealthy, it doesn't matter if you're super poor, and it doesn't matter what kind of status you exist in, we all need it. It's really hard for all of us to have it.

[00:46:45] Fawn: Ali, do you, would you say that When you do this, because I can think of some people listening that it takes such effort and such energy to Set everything else aside to be present to practice the art of improv Improvisation, but to put all your focus on another person I can perhaps feel a question come up like doesn't that take a lot of energy?

[00:47:09] Fawn: So my question Ali is when you do this, do you feel more energized? Are there times where you feel depleted? Or do you feel totally energized by doing this, by connecting with another spirit like that? I would assume if you truly do it, right, you feel energized, right?

[00:47:27] ALI: Yeah, and here's, here's, here I'd say is maybe the caveat would be the after.

[00:47:36] ALI: Remember, I think I mentioned how it's like you have a recorder filming. Your entire clown interaction and we used to, we, uh, as humanitarian clowns would have a lot of, um, and this is with Gesundheit, there's Clowns Without Borders, who's amazing, and they might have a different process, but we would have Holding Violeta, and what we would do is we'd sit there and we'd talk about the, where we had been, and so I'm saying this because you're still recording all the things you're seeing, right?

[00:48:11] ALI: You're just not thinking about them. In the moment, because you're really, it's, it's, once you stop, once you're able to like really hone in, it's energizing, it, it's as freeing for me as it is for them, because I am not, I'm not an identity, I'm not any of the labels, I'm not any of these, I don't have any expectations of myself, all that burden Of trying to be something.

[00:48:43] ALI: Because as soon as I start thinking, I've got to be a great clown, I'm putting on that label and that burden again. That's exhausting. It's exhausting, which we're always doing, right?

[00:48:54] MATT: And you're also saying, I. You know, I need to be a great, no, no, no, no, no, no. What you need is, I don't know, maybe great performance, you know, connection, which automatically implies someone else is involved in it.

[00:49:11] MATT: It takes it away from the self. And to me, that's part of, that's a big part of friendship too, and conversations as friends. Yeah, is it's not about me, you know, yes, I just got this blah blah. No, no No, the conversation goes where it goes you enjoy each other's company you move on.

[00:49:29] ALI: Yeah. Yeah, exactly Yeah, and I do want to touch on this though because I I'm sure Folks kind of you're saying it could be hard.

[00:49:38] ALI: It is that like we can clown in life in that way in the way with friendships of being present of putting aside time of making time of muting phones of those kinds of things and really focusing on what the person saying or how the person is reacting those minute Facial expressions. When we focus in on the really seeing the person or really hearing the person or really feeling, you know, maybe you're just holding someone's hand.

[00:50:07] ALI: You don't have to speak the same language. You don't have to necessarily be a hearing or a visual, you know, like there's, you don't have to necessarily see, I know I'm using the word see, but That kind of touching connecting there is also with clowning, because I do want to touch on this, the recorder that's happening all the time.

[00:50:28] ALI: That's because we're just absorbing information all the time. You know, that's not just words. That's not just sight. That's texture, smells, flavors. You know, I know that my friend, you know, the little kids put their hands where there's a dead bird in there, right? To try toe because they saw the motion of Wash the hands, but the connection between wash the hands and waters there, but not the connection between, Oh, there's a dead thing in here.

[00:50:52] ALI: You know what I mean? Those kinds of things happen. And your little recorder is still going like, Oh, Oh, I saw these things. Or like I said, this, this person's going to die. This happened, all these sorts of things. So when you step away from clowning, there's still processing because we are sensitive and we are.

[00:51:10] ALI: Feeling these things in the moment of play, we're playing and afterwards was sometimes we have to process the, those, the flood of all the things that we see and all the labels that we see and all those things and then hold space for one another to as well, clowns anyway, we would hold space for each other, we would clown for each other in the sense of allowing one to weep and allowing one to be like, I.

[00:51:44] ALI: I'm so scared right now and just, again, holding space. So we have you. We're holding you, you know? So, uh, it's not that you are completely in this. You're in a, I don't want to say like you're in a state. It's not like you're like transcending. You're still absorbing all the information around you and you still have your Histories and your experiences that are putting meaning on all the things you're experiencing It's just when you're interacting with that person or people Or even a dog or like I mean cuz sometimes you just kind of are just really present with everything around you.

[00:52:32] ALI: It's, it's just making the choice and it takes practice. It's like I said, with my family, I'm still practicing. I'm still falling and stumbling and pratfalling and trying to get to that same state with them more frequently as I am when I put on a nose and I get the clown and I get to share space with others.

[00:52:56] ALI: So it It is just listening so hard and it's listening with every aspect and then catching yourself kind of like when people talk about meditation, like the drifting cloud, everyone brings up the cloud, don't pin down the cloud, let the thoughts come in, drift out. It is kind of that it's going, it's not fixating on the fact that you started thinking about how well you're doing in that moment.

[00:53:21] ALI: It's remembering I'm there with love and this is a life. And if life is sacred and beautiful and we only have a little bit of time on this earth, it Every life is a gift, and we're all, instead of thinking about we're all taking, think about we're all gifting, right? So like, I want to receive that gift of that person in front of me.

[00:53:44] ALI: I want to receive that gift of life versus an opportunity. I feel like life is, you know, like everything in front of us. is a gift, right? So if we want to receive that gift, I don't want to miss that opportunity to receive that gift, you know, versus, you know, it's, well, it's just like, Oh, I missed the phone call from the person that's going to make me like the biggest superstar in the world or whatever opportunity I was going for.

[00:54:14] ALI: If we look at each life in front of us as that phone call. That opportunity to connect with somebody again, connections, right? Like it changes how we view it. It's a gift that, that. Moment is a gift and, and yeah, you know, obviously being in that state 24 seven doesn't happen, but including it in our day to day and, and again, to micro, to shrink the clown experience, which is much bigger, you know, like there's, there's big play and then there's just kind of being with one another, but in our own lives, soaking it into how I interact with somebody.

[00:54:58] ALI: It is. Yes. Remembering that the person in front of me is a gift. Yes. Okay. I wasn't able to turn off my phone because I've run into you in a store or I've run into you on the street and I am in a journey right now. I have to get to this meeting on time. Then maybe it is only just looking that person in the eyes or maybe just touching their shoulder or if they feel uncomfortable about touch and stuff, which a lot of people do these days and age.

[00:55:29] ALI: Just kind of taking a breath and a moment and acknowledging their existence and then like the calm of tying my shoes being, I am so appreciative that I, you know, it's, it's a real, it's been a real gift to see you today. I have to get to a meeting, have a lovely day and really mean it. You know, like I think, I think really just saying that this is really important that I say hi, even if that's all you're saying is hi.

[00:55:59] ALI: Yes. I see that life in front of me, hi. Yes. That's just feeling it. Like if you feel it inside, and I think that's, that's another thing is, you know, we, it's hard for us to feel. Because I think I personally can probably cry at a drop of a hat, you know, sometimes it's just, the world is so overwhelming and sometimes we hold things up so much that the idea of being touched is so scary because we know we might break because we've been holding tension so much, the release of tension is like tears and sobs, you know, so I think a lot of times the idea of really feeling is scary.

[00:56:40] ALI: You know, to say hi to someone and really mean you hi. Like, that's kind of scary, like, it's very vulnerable to be seen. We avert our eyes so much, you know? We do. We do. I know, right? Can you believe it? I know. Uh, you know, like when you're walking on the metro and you're like, I just, or a train or a plane and you sit down and you're like, I'm so tired.

[00:57:03] ALI: I hope that person next to me doesn't look at me or start up a conversation because I just want to sleep, right? The other option is to like, look at the person and be like, Oh. That's nice to meet you too. I tell you, I'm very tired, so I'm going to take a nap, but it was really lovely meeting you. Done.

[00:57:23] ALI: Done. You know what I mean? Like, we can still acknowledge caretaking. Yeah.

[00:57:29] MATT: Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes, yeah, everybody wants to be heard. Everybody wants to be seen. Absolutely. Yeah. No, yesterday was a very challenging day for me, but I made sure that those people that I care about Especially yesterday's work stuff that they knew that I saw them that I went out of my way to show them that I saw them

[00:57:52] Fawn: and then you weren't able to like receive the like us around you to say it's gonna be okay you it took you talking to a stranger

[00:58:02] MATT: oh yes but yes and no

[00:58:05] Fawn: right it's a I just felt you and I energetically saw you release the tension when you told the stranger everything you had told us in the house that was bothering you about what happened, all the terrible things that happened at work.

[00:58:21] Fawn: You told a total stranger, another fellow dude, and all he said was, yeah. What did he say? And I sensed and saw you relax immediately. Well, I'd

[00:58:34] MATT: also. Okay, so we had layoffs at work yesterday. I don't want to be cryptic about anything, but some of them came as a surprise and some of them didn't. So the ones that Didn't come as a surprise.

[00:58:49] MATT: You're already mentally prepared for and blah blah blah, right? You're okay with that But the ones that you weren't expecting are the challenging ones and the

[00:58:56] Fawn: tricky ones and Matt feels everything deeply It was everything is very you're very caring

[00:59:04] MATT: in in in the particular instance You're referring to it's it's what I call You want to talk to somebody who's not emotionally connected to the issue because you want to hear The complete logical approach, even if the person is so completely different from you or, you know, they're 20 times smarter than you or not 20 times.

[00:59:23] MATT: It doesn't matter. It's just, yeah, you frame it, you put it out there and now you put it all out there. You put out as much context as you feel you need to. You spit it out and it helps define it. Because I think one of the problems that we do have is that, you know, the problem seems so big. This is why I like having a to do list, is, you know, you ever been in that mindset where you're running around, you're not getting any one task done, but you're working on five?

[00:59:54] MATT: Yeah. Oh my god, it's so frustrating. Oh yeah. Whereas a to do list, I'm gonna do this, then I'm gonna do this. All of a sudden things become more manageable and it's very, very similar in that particular instance because I was able to just bundle it up, hand it over to this guy who wasn't emotionally affected and could care less on some level about the whole situation, as well he should, he shouldn't care.

[01:00:18] MATT: Yeah. And to hear him bounce back with like, yeah, okay.

[01:00:22] Fawn: But he also offered you advice. He did. Which if we had done that at home, No. Yeah, you would have said, stop trying to fix it. But, but the thing is that, It took a stranger to say, It's okay, you should feel proud of yourself. You should celebrate your

[01:00:39] MATT: little win.

[01:00:39] MATT: Because it becomes an objective success as opposed to an emotional success.

[01:00:46] ALI: Somebody in the community was able to hold that space, right? Whereas, for instance, like, I was talking about how my family is a challenge for me, right? Because again Well, yeah,

[01:00:57] MATT: raise your hand if your family is not a challenge for you.

[01:01:00] MATT: Yeah,

[01:01:00] ALI: yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me put my hands down, because I talk with my hands. Um, well, because that is There's so much you have to hold up of their perceptions, your relation, like the identity that you think you have to be for them. Right? So, even though it might be the safest in theory, the fact that you care so much about them, about your family, can also be why it's the hardest, because everything becomes more sensitive.

[01:01:34] ALI: And they care so much and sometimes it's like, well They care. That's why they're saying, you know what I mean? Like, how is this a real, like, because there's so much attached to it. There's so many different links and identities linked to it. It's not that the love isn't received. Well, the love can sometimes be deflected, uh, you know, but sometimes it, it is like somebody else needs to hold that space for us.

[01:01:58] ALI: Right. We need to be held by that space because, you know, in the end. Again, we're all lives. I mean, I, I know I keep saying that, but I have to keep remembering it. You know, where we're all lives and the idea again, this is like a perfection thing falls into kind of what you were saying, Fawn, about the need for perfection is like the identity of family member.

[01:02:22] ALI: Being the perfect family member, the idea that we as a perfect family member can hold the weight of our partner or the weight of our family on us and that we don't need help that outside community of lives can't be a part of the support and that, that, and maybe it's a gift to us to not have to try to fill that space and for an opportunity for our loved one to find some reprieve or space.

[01:02:52] ALI: With someone else and we're given as a gift of a break, like a break of effort. Like, Oh, I gave you a vacation for a little while you don't have to say anything. It's cool. You take some time, drink a cup of tea. I'm going to go over to Ralph over here and Ralph's going to just give me some space to like vent.

[01:03:10] ALI: You know what I mean? Like I think sometimes I know for me anyway, sometimes I'm like, why am I not a better? Why am I not a better sibling? Why am I not a better child? You know, why am I not a better? Well, relative, you know, well, here's a

[01:03:23] Fawn: theory. It's harder. It's just a theory, but perhaps it's harder to be present with people that you have history with because of the recorder.

[01:03:34] Fawn: Because when they're saying one sentence, you're not hearing that one sentence, you're hearing years of recorded history within the context of that one sentence. So you can't Be fully present in just the three or four words that were said, you were thinking of everything in all dimensions of that one sentence with the three words in it or something, you know, so that's why it's easier to hear a stranger.

[01:04:02] Fawn: Sometimes it is,

[01:04:03] MATT: it can be absolutely, well, yeah, I think about, you know, particularly with family. I mean, you know, it's like literally you're, you're talking to people who taught you how to wipe your own butt. Right? Uh huh. Yeah. And it can be hard for them and you, it can be hard for them to see you as the adult you've become and it can be hard for you to see them as the almost peer, if you will, that they've become to you.

[01:04:30] MATT: They're not, you know, the one who's teaching you right and wrong and, you know, teaching you the multiplication tables and correcting you when you make, no, they're not that person anymore.

[01:04:42] Fawn: Yeah. You guys, I think we should continue this conversation and wrap it up just for today. There's a lot to think about Ali.

[01:04:51] Fawn: I want to hear you all day, every day. Thank you so much for the beautiful wisdom that you brought for every one of us today. And I hope you come back. I want to have more coffee table talk with you. It's true. Maybe we could have tea. I

[01:05:08] ALI: am a big tea drinker. Yes.

[01:05:09] Fawn: Yeah.

[01:05:12] ALI: Well, cause you mentioned the spaces and stuff.

[01:05:15] ALI: Um, it's just, it's so interesting that, you know, so many making space for one another. I kind of just want to say like one thing is like, we're talking about families and stuff is again, everything is practice, you know, and maybe our time with our family, like this is what I'm trying really hard to do is, is get my family to have.

[01:05:34] ALI: Tea with me right and have like give the gift of space Like in Japanese tea ceremony. Yeah, I was gonna say like that's like I'm studying slowly I'd like to like do some intense studying in the future. But the idea that the the guest is the All the steps that you do are really for the guest. It seems like a lot of steps, but it's all for the guests.

[01:05:59] ALI: And I think about like my relatives. My grandmother told me a story about visiting some relatives, um, hard workers, farmers, and getting there, kind of surprising them back before cell phones and, and phone calls were regular and showing up them sitting down, having coffee and pie and just acting like there was nothing in the world more important than just being with them.

[01:06:24] ALI: Right. And then as soon as they got in the car and we're driving away in the rear view mirror, they saw them hustling to get stuff done because the sun's setting, they've got a farm, there's like a million things to do, but never did they feel rushed. Wow. And I was thinking about just how those spaces, like I worked on my, my friend's Ethiopian and one of my friends, and Having coffee with them was like that and my translation is like my tea experiences when I have tea with my friends that are also absurdly obsessed with tea.

[01:06:59] ALI: We create that space and finding those small moments with our family. Create space, whether it's tea or water or or whatever, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be us being like, I feel comfortable. I'm not gonna like this. Everything I say, I feel completely fine saying to you, I don't need outside help or outside space, but just making sure that there is that space with one another.

[01:07:23] ALI: Still, I think I feel like the like getting a massage, getting those knots and those tension out. I feel like just consistently creating that space is also gonna like if you

[01:07:34] Fawn: think about it, This is why coffee shops have become so wildly popular in our culture in America over the last 20 something years.

[01:07:43] Fawn: Yeah, we can have coffee at home, but we tend to spend, I don't know, 100 times more on a cup of coffee, 8, sometimes 11 for a cup of coffee. Oh my gosh. Right? That's so much. But really, the value of it is we're around other people. I had a professor in University, my photography professor who I hated like, um, subways and buses that were crowded.

[01:08:09] Fawn: I don't like to be around crowds. It really freaks me out. Sure. As much as I love people and people watching. And one day he said, isn't it the best to be on the, on like the most crowded bus? Isn't it the best? And we were like, why? He said, it's the only opportunity in life we get to be so close where you're touching someone without it being awkward.

[01:08:33] Fawn: So close to someone. It's our only opportunity. And I never forgot that, you know, so every time I'm in a situation that is uncomfortable, like, wow, it's a fabulous opportunity that we normally don't get. That's why it's uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I love that. Ali, can you tell all of our friends around the world how they can find you and your work and what you are up to?

[01:09:04] Fawn: How can they get ahold of you? Where can they find you?

[01:09:06] ALI: You can go to my website, which is www.alicheff.com. I would say that might be the best way. I'm not, um. I, I am on social media, but mostly I just like read to my sister's little ones because we're a time zones away. So mostly it's just me like reading a book and even though I do voiceover, uh, and I read audiobooks all the time, it's live.

[01:09:39] ALI: So all the stumbles and stuff are in there and my, uh, my thoughts and musings as I read, which, uh, I think that's, That symbol, A L I underscore C H E F F, um, but yeah, anyone's, always feel free to reach out to me if you have questions or if anybody wants to connect, that's, you know, I finally figured out how to answer.

[01:10:02] ALI: Thank goodness. And thank you, Fawn and Matt for helping me there, uh, find my contact information on my website. So now I will respond back quickly. I didn't know those messages were going to my spam. So I'm very happy that you solved that for me.

[01:10:17] Fawn: Isn't it funny how we have this internal dialogue? Because I was thinking because I wrote everyone, I wrote a message to Ali.

[01:10:25] Fawn: I'm like, wow, they didn't respond to me. Okay, I'll wait and then I waited weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and then I started thinking they hate me They hate me. They hate me and then one day I was bold and brave enough to say Oh, wait, did you get my message? And

[01:10:44] ALI: he said, no. Yeah, such a simple phrase.

[01:10:47] ALI: Nothing weighted about it either. Right? Like, did you get my message? That's such a simple thing, but you had all that behind it. It was, all of that was behind there. And I'm so glad because honestly, as soon as I, I was like, what message, huh? And once I went in and found it, Oh, goodness, there were a lot of messages in general that I just did not know existed out there.

[01:11:12] ALI: I was like, Oh, wow, who knew this came in? Because my email automatically thought it was spam because it doesn't. It just sends it as like Squarespace something or other, you know, like whenever you're, you know, so I'm so glad you clarified that. So anybody listening, I will respond to you from now on. It's, it's been solved.

[01:11:34] ALI: Uh, thank you friends for, uh, helping me with that. For sure. We

[01:11:39] Fawn: love you. Yeah. Ali. Ali, chef, everyone. Amazing, creative human being. Such a pleasure to have you here. It was

[01:11:47] ALI: so fun.

[01:11:49] Fawn: We'll talk to you next time. Yeah. For sure. Always, you're always welcome at our table. We love you and everyone out there, thank you.

[01:11:55] Fawn: So much. If you ever need to speak to us, we'll, I mean, we'll be talking to you in a few days, have a beautiful every day. And if you need us in between that time, always, we are always here for you. Just go to our friendly world podcast. com. That is our site, right? Why can't I ever remember our own website?

[01:12:15] Fawn: We have like four or five of them. Anyway, we'll talk to you on a little bit. Thank you so much, everyone for being down to clown with us. Talk to you later. Okay. Bye! Be well.