Why We Yell at Each Other and The Art of the Empty Jacket

Empty Jacket
[00:00:00] FAWN: Here we go. Welcome back everybody. Hello. Welcome to our Friendly World, everybody. Let's see. I feel like it's just, I feel like this is the first time we've been together in a while. Just us, you and me.
[00:00:16] FAWN: It 
[00:00:16] MATT: does seem that way. Yeah. 
[00:00:18] FAWN: You and me and you guys. You know, like I think we've had a lot of guests on lately, which is weird because I don't know.
[00:00:26] FAWN: It's hard to be a good host sometimes, you know, like there's a lot of worry involved for me, there 
[00:00:31] MATT: is a lot of worry in being a good host for sure. Trying to make sure everybody feels comfortable, everybody feels heard, everybody feels taken care of for sure, and you 
[00:00:39] FAWN: gotta maneuver and do things for them and it kind of changes the way you operate 
[00:00:46] MATT: sometimes.
[00:00:47] MATT: Yeah. 
[00:00:47] FAWN: I kind of like just being, what, what's the term, Matt? Flying by the seat of our pants. Is that how it goes? I always get a word mixed in. That does 
[00:00:56] MATT: work. Absolutely. 
[00:00:57] FAWN: Am I saying the words right? Yes.
[00:00:59] FAWN: Flying 
[00:00:59] MATT: by the seat of our pants. 
[00:01:00] FAWN: Flying by the seat of our pants, guys. But that's how we roll.
[00:01:04] FAWN: I mean, this is why this is another reason why we wanted to start the podcast, is we wanted our conversations to be exactly the way they are. When we're talking at the kitchen table or , when we're alone, we're like, have you noticed this? What's up with this? And that's when we figure things out, right?
[00:01:22] FAWN: I love having these conversations with you guys with you guys listening. When we're talking together, when we're together, when you're with a friend, you feel like. Well, this is how I feel anyway. When you have these discussions together, when you're noticing things and when you're as friends talking about things, that you notice that I feel that that creates a resolution to all of the problems in the world
[00:01:56] FAWN: even like sometimes when we're talking, I feel like in talking, we're figuring it out, and it's creating a resolution, even for world politics even, or like some crazy stuff out there. I feel like it creates a change in some manner. We may not see it, but I feel like, you know, sometimes you have these long conversations with a friend and then you're like, oh, we should stop.
[00:02:23] FAWN: I'm like, no, no, no. I think we're on the verge. We're on the verge of fixing it or resolving it or making it better or making it feel better. Do you ever feel that Matt? Oh my Lord. And do you know what I'm talking about? I totally do, but, or, or do I sound like 
[00:02:38] MATT: a crazy person? But for me, it's, it's a case of like, I like talk, start talking to somebody and we're talking and we're talking and we're talking and we're getting into it, and we're starting to get to a good space, and then we get sucked out of it.
[00:02:51] MATT: Oh, why? Because other people show up or because there's a time constraint on it or, you know, it can be a variety of things, but it, it feels like, oh, we're so close for sure, to whatever it is that, you know, we mean to say. It's like sometimes when you're having a conversation with someone, It's, it's, it's rude by the way, but you're always thinking about, oh my God, they just said this.
[00:03:14] MATT: I really wanna say this. But they're still talking and you're just waiting for them to stop and start talking, which is a terrible way to have a conversation. But 
[00:03:21] FAWN: that's where the notebook comes in. Remember we did that episode about a notebook? Mm-hmm. Why? You should have a notebook, why you should take notes about your thoughts, but also your friends and what they like, what you noticed about your friends, right?
[00:03:33] FAWN: Like things you can jot down, like. Birthdays or you notice something specific that you may forget, like some tiny little sign, right? That is really special. That is very significant to to remember, but you may not wanna talk about it for whatever reason. Just n things to notice. So, I think that's good. I mean, yes, we should totally be actively listening and not trying to prove our point.
[00:04:00] FAWN: Yes. And waiting for our turn to see, oh, is it my turn? Is it my turn? Because you're not really listening to the other person. Right. But if you have a little notebook, you can just jot it down really quick. That's 
[00:04:09] MATT: true. Yeah. No ab yes, no, absolutely. Which is what I seem to say an awful lot. Yeah. But for me, it's like that's where conversations start, where it's like, oh, I wanna say this, and you're waiting.
[00:04:21] MATT: You're waiting. But you know, then at some point I relax into the entire conversation, especially when it's freewheeling and long. And those are the ones I hate getting pulled 
[00:04:30] FAWN: out of. When when we get pulled out of them, that's when I pull out the word, no, no, I don't care if you have to go, hold on a second, is what I usually say.
[00:04:42] FAWN: Right. And I think it's just how I've always been. Remember when I went to pull out a wisdom tooth and we were waiting in the waiting room, right? Guys? I have a total fear of the dentist, let alone the the surgeon who pulls the wisdom tooth, who's gonna be putting 
[00:05:00] MATT: you 
[00:05:00] FAWN: kind of under Oh, for sure. All the way under, right?
[00:05:04] FAWN: And so, um, I'm so scared that I could have pulled all four, but I pulled one cause I was like, let's just do the one because it was infected, whatever, I think. Um, so we were, I was so freaked out. They were like, well, we can give you this little pill. I'm like, little pill. I don't do drugs. Like, no. But I was so scared.
[00:05:27] FAWN: I kind of said, okay. But then you weren't allowed to take it until sober. You signed a whole bunch of releases. So I did. And so we had to be there for longer, which increased the anxiety. Right? And then, so I took the pill. I'm like, nothing's happening. I'm just sitting there dreading. And then all of a sudden I felt nothing.
[00:05:53] FAWN: Like I felt calm. And then I remember they came to get me and they called my name. Mm-hmm. And I just looked at them and I said, no. 
[00:06:02] MATT: It wasn't it, there wasn't that much energy on it. It was just like, no. 
[00:06:07] FAWN: Is that how it was? Is that how it was? That's how it was for me. For you, when I heard you, you're my only witness.
[00:06:13] FAWN: Right. And then did we laugh together? Like was it funny at the moment because I remember laughing. I, 
[00:06:19] MATT: we have laughed about it any number of times. I don't remember if we laughed about it then though. 
[00:06:23] FAWN: Well, okay, so that's when the no comes in. I think I'm famous for saying no. Like, no, no, no. Sit back down.
[00:06:33] FAWN: We're gonna keep talking, you know, let's figure this out. But anyway, so the subject today is when we're talking or when we're not talking, why do we yell at each other? What is the point of yelling? I've done it. I do it. You do 
[00:06:51] MATT: it at me. I do it at you.
[00:06:57] FAWN: I do it to the ne, I'm always, first of all, like yelling comes in all forms. 
[00:07:02] MATT: That is true. 
[00:07:03] FAWN: When I was little, I was the PA system for the neighborhood. Like, like when the kids needed the other kids down the street, like they wanted them to come over. I would be the one they would get and I would yell Janet.
[00:07:21] FAWN: Janet, like down the street. Mm-hmm. They would hear me from inside their houses. So I'm just a loud person. Um, but why do we yell when we're upset? When we're upset? Yes. Okay. I'll pose it to you. I have my own theories. You have your own theories. 
[00:07:41] MATT: I know. 
[00:07:42] FAWN: Okay. What is 
[00:07:43] MATT: it? Well, Okay, so martial arts, Aikido, and like my raison d'etre, um, is, you know, communication is I think one of the things that's flawed.
[00:07:56] MATT: That's why I favor explicit communication, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, you know? But Aikido teaches us that, when somebody is so desperate to be heard, they will clench their hand in a fist and strike because they don't feel heard. Yelling is the step before that. I yell, and then I'm gonna throw a punch if that's where it's gonna escalate to.
[00:08:21] MATT: So it's part of the escalation into, you know, you need to hear whatever it is I'm saying. 
[00:08:29] FAWN: And for me, yes, I totally agree, but I have another answer that came across my way this week. But yeah, I totally agree. It's when you're feeling unheard. For me, usually when I feel unheard, I'll stop you and say, listen, listen to me.
[00:08:47] FAWN: Look at me. Look at me in the eyes right now.
[00:08:49] MATT: Nope. No (Fawn and Matt begin laughing)
[00:08:53] FAWN: I'm like, look at me, and then I'll say it again. And then usually the person will say, okay, yeah. I'm like, okay, well I hope they got it. And then sure enough, the thing that I was. I was upset about. They repeat so they never heard what I said, so then I have to do it again.
[00:09:16] FAWN: And again, and like the third time past, the third time, and this, this is like the frustration that comes in is after the third time I'm like, are you kidding me? Cuz every time I went outta my way to slow things down, to make sure that you heard me, that you saw me, that all the signals were there for me to communicate better.
[00:09:38] FAWN: I use different words. So, you know, sometimes when you talk to someone, they don't understand the words you're using. So, For whatever reason, energetically, the sequence of words, the way they're, you know, like their attention span wasn't there. So , I try to do everything I can to be present, to also ask for you to be present and do whatever I can to help you be present.
[00:10:03] FAWN: And when you don't get it after the third time, then yeah. I start yelling because I'm like, well, maybe they can't hear me, so let me yell. Let me take it to the oomph degree. So maybe by changing my tone, by changing my volume, maybe then you'll get it. And usually that works, doesn't it? Doesn't it?
[00:10:33] MATT: Sometimes 
[00:10:33] MATT: yes, sometimes no.
[00:10:34] FAWN: I mean, sometimes I feel like I have to stand on the table and jump up and down like an ape for someone to go, whoa, what's happening here? Do you know what I mean? Pay attention to me. Right. It feels like, but okay, so I found out, do you wanna know the the other reason why people yell?
[00:10:52] MATT: Okay. Is that a yes or a no? Well, 
[00:10:56] FAWN: what. What's your problem? 
[00:10:59] MATT: That's what you said the first time I asked you when I, when I finally asked you out what, 
[00:11:05] FAWN: okay. Yeah. That's why I 
[00:11:07] MATT: said it that way, but yes, yes, I would please. What 
[00:11:09] FAWN: does that have to do with what we're doing? It doesn't Anxious. Why would you come up with that?
[00:11:12] MATT: I'm pulling things from everywhere today. 
[00:11:14] FAWN: Okay. All right. So here's the key, and I think this is the real reason why people yell, is your hearts are far apart. Your heart is so far away from you, from the other person that, I mean, there's many ways to look at that. It's your heart, your spirit, your attention, but basically your heart, your soul is not near.
[00:11:45] FAWN: It is not. We are not close. So I have to yell. 
[00:11:52] MATT: And because man's a social animal, we feel, and, and a tribal animal on some level, we feel the need. We need to be close to others in order to feel safe and protected. Oh, that's kind of cute. That's a, that's an interesting way of thinking about it.
[00:12:09] FAWN: Hmm. I had another point, like when I was thinking about it, like, okay, your heart is far away. Mm-hmm. So you're yelling.
[00:12:19] FAWN: Yeah. And sometimes, like for me, I told you guys when people are mean to me or they break those rules that you have with your own spirit, like deal breakers, you know? You know what I mean? You guys, we've talked about deal breakers before. There are certain things that some people can do or say that will be a deal breaker.
[00:12:44] FAWN: You can't come back from it. So I know I can't be around these people. Not everybody is meant to be your friend, right? You can be friends for a while. It doesn't mean they'll be your friends forever and sometimes there can come a point where you experience something. They do something, they say something, and that's your cue to know
[00:13:06] FAWN: this is it. We gotta move in this separate way. And so sometimes when people really do me dirt, I'll disappear. I've talked about this before. I'll disappear. You'll never hear from me again. Right. And it, it goes back to yelling because I won't yell. I don't want. To be close anymore, and I, when I realize my heart is far away, and it comes to a point where I'm about to yell.
[00:13:36] FAWN: If I really look deep inside myself, I'm like, I don't even wanna yell. I wanna go wherever my heart is, which is far away from this person, and continue on the direction of my heart, which is not with this person. So it's either yelling, the sensation of wanting to yell to be heard or let me go follow my heart, which is not here.
[00:14:00] FAWN: So there's no yelling period. There's no nothing. Bye. There's quiet. Right? Silence, radio silence is what they call it, right? 
[00:14:11] MATT: Yes. Yeah, and I totally get it. I've been on both sides of that. I've been in the situation where I've wanted to yell and I've been in this situation where I haven't wanted to yell, and I've been in the situation where the other person hasn't wanted, wanted to yell.
[00:14:28] MATT: Hasn't that sounds awkward. Anyways, I've been on all sides of it. And yeah, it's uncomfortable when you know you are and the person across from you is just speaking very calmly or not at all and just walks away. Yeah. 
[00:14:44] FAWN: You actually had the term for this in martial arts from Aikido. You taught me this.
[00:14:50] FAWN: 
[00:14:50] MATT: That's judo though. 
[00:14:52] FAWN: Oh, is it judo? 
[00:14:52] MATT: It
[00:14:53] MATT: is judo.
[00:14:54] FAWN: Can you explain to everyone or explain to our friends who may not know what the art of the empty jacket is? 
[00:15:00] MATT: And again, personal belief, whatever, whatever you want to call it. I believe it is from judo, but in judo you are wearing your ghee, which basically you have on this.
[00:15:11] MATT: It's almost like a jacket, but it's very, they're like pajamas. It's very heavy, but it's very heavy material in. Japanese, uh, 
[00:15:20] FAWN: judo, or it's like judo. It's like wearing pajamas, but the collars are very, 
[00:15:24] MATT: they're sturdy. They're very sturdy. It's stiff and you can like grab someone, grab, grab someone by this collar and like throw 'em around, and that's what you do.
[00:15:31] MATT: It's. Is it wrestling? Well, wrestling has throws, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But the art of the empty jacket, and supposedly like when, someone less skilled deals with like a black belt, it's like they go to try and throw them and there's nothing to throw, there's no weight, there's no nothing. And so they, you know, I'm not sure what the sensation is, having never actually grappled with a, a judo master and God knows I don't want to because that's gonna hurt.
[00:15:58] MATT: But um, yeah, it's just a sense of there's no weight, there's nothing to throw, there's nothing to throw. And so, yeah, for me, I took this into, you know, this whole philosophy as far as like, there's also this concept in Aikido of just kind of almost ringing your hands of someone. There's an Aikido technique and like you block and you just kind of, and it looks stupid and ridiculous, like all of Aikido, but it, it's almost like you're completely dismissing this person, which is not
[00:16:30] MATT: very, the style of Aikido we studied, that's not very Aikido like, but we did learn the technique. Mm-hmm. Which always felt a little 
[00:16:39] FAWN: uncomfortable. When you first taught me the art of the empty jacket. Mm-hmm. What I thought was, oh, I can slip out of this jacket. I'm gone. They don't know it, but they're still wrestling with my jacket.
[00:16:54] FAWN: Do you know what I'm saying? But they're still, you know, when you were a little kid, did you ever do this? Like when it was windy and the wind is coming into the house and the curtains are moving around, I would pretend I was zoro and I would fence with a. With the wind, with a curtain in the wind. No.
[00:17:10] FAWN: Never did that. Okay, nevermind. So, but that's, that's the image that I got was like, I'm gone, I'm leaving you with this empty jacket. You're still messing around with it, fighting with it, not realizing for a while. I'm not even in there. Right. Bye!, so same thing. So there you have it, the art of the empty jacket.
[00:17:31] FAWN: But, um, the reason why we yell, the reason why we don't yell, So any, any thoughts on, I mean, we really shouldn't be yelling, but sometimes you have to change your volume. Sometimes your volume has to go like this for bedtime. Mm, sleepy time. Sleepy time. Everything's okay. And sometimes you have to be like, whoa, beep a beep.
[00:17:56] FAWN: Whoa. No. Hey, hey, hey. Wait, wait. Wake up. No. Hey. Hey, you know? Yes, I get it. All right. That's it, you guys. There's been so much happening. I don't know if you are all feeling this, but time is speeding up so much and I feel like I am not getting anything done. I'm constantly running and exhausted, and at the end of the day, I, I'm, I'm just no good.
[00:18:25] FAWN: I'm just a flat pancake. I can barely make it up the stairs baby. Right. You're not feeling like that? It's just No, 
[00:18:32] MATT: no, no. God knows I'm getting caught up in, in too much stuff that feels irrelevant to the, to what I really want to be doing. What 
[00:18:39] FAWN: is happening? Why are we feeling like that? Just 
[00:18:42] MATT: there's a lot going on.
[00:18:43] MATT: There's just, and there's always a lot going on, but you know, for me it's just, you know, work bs. I used to be better at this throw, throw me into 85 meetings today. 
[00:18:52] FAWN: I used to be. Way better at this. I could calm everything down and move at my own slow motion pace and get everything done. Haven't been able to do that for several months now.
[00:19:06] FAWN: I don't know what is happening. Are you all feeling that same way? Let us know. Um, so anyway, I'm saying that there's a lot to do because I wanna make this episode short today. Because I don't have time to edit. I don't have time to polish. I don't have time. I have, I'm just gonna put it out there and we'll see you guys in just a few days.
[00:19:28] FAWN: We love you so much. Thank you for listening. And please, it would mean the world to us if you left us a, um, a kind review on, is it Apple, iTunes? I don't know. You know, when they ask you for the stars, wherever you get your podcast from, like, Or actually even better, if you could tell everyone you can to listen to our podcast and engage.
[00:19:56] FAWN: Oh my gosh. The friends that engage with us, they're, they're, they've all become family. So that's why, when, what, that's what we wanna create is community, family. The family community thing. You know, we're not, we choose. I don't even like the term. We choose family. We're finding each other again. We've always been family.
[00:20:23] FAWN: That is friendship for us. Anyway, talk to you in a few days. We love you. Thank you. Be well. See you later. Oh, have a beautiful every day.